molly.com
Saturday 24 May 2008
Working Group by Numbers
Do the numbers tell a story?
Here is a breakdown of a W3C Working Group by number of representatives and their origin. The question I’m thinking about is whether the number of reps per given organization relates to influence, and if so, to what measurable degree?
Sample working group representatives by origin
| # of Reps | Organization |
|---|---|
| 1 | Adobe |
| 2 | Antenna House, Inc. |
| 3 | Apple, Inc. |
| 3 | AOL LLC |
| 3 | HP |
| 2 | IWA/HWG |
| 7 | Microsoft Corporation |
| 3 | Mozilla Foundation |
| 3 | Opera Software | 5 | Other - Individual, independent company reps |
| 1 | Sun Microsystems, Inc |
| 1 | University member |
| 6 | W3C Invited Experts/Staff |
There are several variables, one very important one is that just because there’s a currently listed representative in a group doesn’t mean that representative participates as much or at all. A related variable would be that certain long-term participants who do a lot of work will naturally have earned merit-based influence within a group.
Tell me what you think.
Filed under: professional, policies, standards, software, web design and development, society, Blogroll, w3c, browsers, innovation, accessibility, molly asks you, community
Posted by: Molly | 3:36 pm |
May 24th, 2008 at 5:44 pm
That’s going to depend entirely upon how many of those representatives are active and what their agendas are. Let’s say everyone was active, and that each had their employers/parent organizations had their own agenda. In that case, I could see Microsoft having a lot of influence here, especially if it were to court some of the more independent (read: non-corporate) members of the Working Group into advocating its ideas.
Of course, the same could be said of the other member companies/organizations/individuals as well.
By itself, it really doesn’t say anything to me, other than Microsoft makes up nearly 1/6 of the Working Group.
May 24th, 2008 at 5:57 pm
Which Working Group? How long has the group been established? What changes or additions in membership have occurred over its life? What draft proposals have been produced? What changes have been made within those proposals? What do the minutes, e-mails, documents, etc. reflect by the participating organizations? How is consensus arrived? Is a draft proposal based upon vote by membership?
This is just crap off the top of my head. Molly, I would think that you would be in a position to answer the question you posed rather easily. What is your assessment??
The table, as it stands by itself, is meaningless without answers to a lot of other variables, I believe.
May 24th, 2008 at 9:36 pm
My first thought was that the table has an alarming number of prime numbers; probably not what you were after though. There are 13 categories on the list…
Other than that, I think that influence is a better measure than quantity.
Pete
May 24th, 2008 at 9:45 pm
I’m looking at the data I understand to be public. Studying the behavior of “influence” is certainly out of my realm of expertise.
I look at this simple chart and wonder how to balance influence in light of differing agendas.
It’s probably quantifiable. I wish I were better at math(s).
That’s why your thoughts are so important to me.
thx! xoxo
Mols
May 24th, 2008 at 9:58 pm
In addition to the other comments, another important question has to do with governance and how deliberations on the work are carried out. Is there voting, and if there is voting, how many votes are there on that group and how are they apportioned? Also, is this a consensus process and how is failure of consensus determined?
[I assume that I could find this out from looking at W3C materials, but you surely must know.)
May 24th, 2008 at 10:06 pm
@orcmid: yes, there’s voting. There’s FOR, AGAINST, and ABSTAIN.
A non-response within reasonable and posted times equals a yes vote < silence="consent" />.
May 25th, 2008 at 12:53 am
Voting is per organization, not per individual. (Unless you are an individual on the group, in which case you have one vote.)
May 25th, 2008 at 8:24 am
I am not sure mathematics will answer the question particularly in examination of any empirical data as it relates to influence.
If I am getting the ‘gist’ of the question or presumed assumption is that Microsoft may have undue influence over another entity, e.g. Adobe. It would be presumptuous to assume that Adobe, or any other member, does not nor would not consult with other colleagues both inside and outside their respective organization and the particular working group. If anything, and considering the issue and prior history of a participant, the view of a participant could be discounted by others based upon perception of bias and/or internal agendas. Perhaps, examine all available empirical data and pose the question to several members.
I am also trying to understand why the question, in the first place, was asked and for what purpose.
May 25th, 2008 at 6:54 pm
The CSS Working Group, mmm, let me ponder.
The CSS Eleven, mmmmmm, let me ponder more.
I agree with Thacker.
“Molly, I would think that you would be in a position to answer the question you posed rather easily. What is your assessment??”
Molly….., you have something to say?
May 26th, 2008 at 2:17 pm
Not really. This is meant only as an exercise to see if numbers (despite the one company/one vote, multiple people present in a meeting from a single company can sway a decision) the sheer presence of members in a working group is influential, or not.
What I DO think this chart, if anything, shows is how much interest and resources a given company is willing to provide to a given group. In this case, Microsoft clearly is showing the lead number of members.
Perhaps my “it was midnight look at this” moment is, in fact, an exercise in futility. Yes I have more data, but not enough, and not that I’m supposed to share (which in and of itself sucks).
As for CSS11 the only disparity I see in that group (aside from being completely inactive at this point) is the ratio of white men to anything else.
May 26th, 2008 at 8:53 pm
Molly
This all lead back to the same dilemma. Is CSS a free worldwide language which help delivers to the world a one inter-operable web where all people can access a web page or is this just a dream that will never become a reality since company profits must be kept in place.
It about now (the age of Aquarius) that humanity is suppose to be coming together as one.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zBnQrrjnajE
May 27th, 2008 at 12:00 am
Damn, I think Alan and Thacker have figured out I’m a hippie!
May 27th, 2008 at 5:34 am
Molly–
I am much inclined to listen to and place stock in your intuition and instinct — and do it without the need of any analytical data to support it. Too often, I believe, people have tried to hold you accountable for lack of ‘data’ that they can easily interpret and understand. That is their limitation and not yours.
May 27th, 2008 at 6:14 am
Molly, I was born in 1967, the year of the hippie….!!!!!
I know all the bands of that era. 1968 was the year that the world changed big time, the peoples revolution. My vinyl collection is in the 1000’s.
As I say, I a repel, revolutionist, dreamer, and the very fabric of the universe connects us as one. By coincidence we are now in a big period of change. 40 years from 1968.
Hello there sister.
May 27th, 2008 at 11:32 pm
I think you’re calling Tim Berners-Lee a Hippie, not me!
Don’t know about you but I still believe in the idea of the interoperable Web.
Is it a pipe dream? If so, I should probably put down the pipe and get on down the road.
But you and I, we, know, it’s only just begun. This is going to outlast my life, and I’m staying on the ride as long as I can. 20 years and counting.
May 28th, 2008 at 7:38 am
Is Tim Berners-Lee a hippie? Cool.
He talks about the semantic web. It is his dream that may one day become a reality.
I’m just like you Molly, I believe in an interoperable web. The decision about the pipe can only be made by you, but I can tell you that you have had a major influence towards greater interoperability and accessibility of the web.
I remember when I was first learning CSS and reading about the browser wars, the Doctype switch, the IE6 release, the rise of the phoenix and finally in 2006, IE7 comes along with it own bugs. I was horrified by what I read, it was all about Money and Politics in the grandest of capitalistic ways. I was to discover the new Guillotine bug on a famous CSS designer’s page. They haven’t responded to me contacting them via web form so I may as well out them, hint, StopHotDot.
One thing that is holding back interoperability is the desire to support backward compatibility or undefined behaviors. You can have both opposites coexist for progress to happen. The later two are rooted in the mistakes of the past and the other, interoperability is the semantic web of the future.
I do believe that web pages must break in various browsers depending for which browser they were coded for and then the web can take that grand step forwards towards interoperability.
I have not held back with my views of the CSS WG. I was to discover that it was like some secret society or organization and who called fowl about MS non transparency on the CSS WG mailing list when IE8 was announced in December. I have learned plenty in my 10 months on the CSS WG list. Why did it have to take me to explain what an empty string was in an attribute selector? Why am I correcting MS about their hasLayout ridden test cases producing wrong values for the UA CSS2.1 style sheet defaults of IE7?
What about the CSS eleven un-working group. One member of the CSS Eleven thinks that CSS is just a tool that can not be talked about by itself without having a flame war on their blog when CSS is ever mentioned. CSS resets are just another thing that is holding the web back. Eric, do resets help implementers to achieve consistency between the various implementations?
I and others know a lot of bug behavior or non CSS standard support in many implementations. Does Gecko check in with Webkit or Opera check in with Gecko to see if their implementation is rendering the same as each other? MS at least tested my pages in January and February with all implementations. I had 1000s of hits from IE7, IE8, Opera 9.50, FF3 and Safari 3 all coming from Redmond going to my various test pages (the IE team was checking there latest implementation against the others). It’s seems that the IE team are really trying to make an effort with making IE8 a CSS2.1 standard compliant browser (completely when they back flipped with the Meta switch). Where has this gone wrong with the other implementers? It’s called ONE standard. Not many many standards.
And the CSS2.1 test suite. Any test case that has more than a few lines is deemed too much to test an implementation against. It has been up to people like Bruno Fassino, Big John and Holly to do the all the work to demonstrate that not all implementations are alike. This has got MS working better but what about the other implementers. They seem to becoming complacent. Stop playing the tic for tac games with MS and visa verso.
I will do my personal best to have my dream (shared by many others) to become a reality. I will do my part (15 minutes of fame) to help this revolution build momentum, the revolution where the CSS authors and web site users win. CSS is for the people, not big business.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=87yq372R4Ts
You say you got a re(al)solution.
Well you knowIs Tim Berners-Lee a hippie? Cool.
He talks about the semantic web. It is his dream that may one day become a reality.
I’m just like you Molly, I believe in an interoperable web. The decision about the pipe can only be made by you, but I can tell you that you have had a major influence towards greater interoperability and accessibility of the web.
I remember when I was first learning CSS and reading about the browser wars, the Doctype switch, the IE6 release, the rise of the phoenix and finally in 2006, IE7 comes along with it own bugs. I was horrified by what I read, it was all about Money and Politics in the grandest of capitalistic ways. I was to discover the new Guillotine bug on a famous CSS designer’s page. They haven’t responded to me contacting them via web form so I may as well out them, hint, StopHotDot.
One thing that is holding back interoperability is the desire to support backward compatibility or undefined behaviors. You can have both opposites coexist for progress to happen. The later two are rooted in the mistakes of the past and the other, interoperability is the semantic web of the future.
I do believe that web pages must break in various browsers depending for which browser they were coded for and then the web can take that grand step forwards towards interoperability.
I have not held back with my views of the CSS WG. I was to discover that it was like some secret society or organization and who called fowl about MS non transparency on the CSS WG mailing list when IE8 was announced in December. I have learned plenty in my 10 months on the CSS WG list. Why did it have to take me to explain what an empty string was in an attribute selector? Why am I correcting MS about their hasLayout ridden test cases producing wrong values for the UA CSS2.1 style sheet defaults of IE7?
What about the CSS eleven un-working group. One member of the CSS Eleven thinks that CSS is just a tool that can not be talked about by itself without having a flame war on their blog when CSS is ever mentioned. CSS resets are just another thing that is holding the web back. Eric, do resets help implementers to achieve consistency between the various implementations?
I and others know a lot of bug behavior or non CSS standard support in many implementations. Does Gecko check in with Webkit or Opera check in with Gecko to see if their implementation is rendering the same as each other? MS at least tested my pages in January and February with all implementations. I had 1000s of hits from IE7, IE8, Opera 9.50, FF3 and Safari 3 all coming from Redmond going to my various test pages (the IE team was checking there latest implementation against the others). It’s seems that the IE team are really trying to make an effort with making IE8 a standard compliant browser (completely when they back flipped with the Meta switch). Where has this gone wrong with the other implementers? It’s called ONE standard. Not many many standards.
And the CSS2.1 test suite. Any test case that has more than a few lines is deemed too much to test an implementation against. It has been up to people like Bruno Fassino, Big John and Holly to do the all the work to demonstrate that not all implementations are alike. This has got MS working better but what about the other implementers. They seem to becoming complacent. Stop playing the tic for tac games with MS and visa verso.
I will do my personal best to have my dream (shared by many others) to become a reality. I will do my part (15 minutes of fame) to help this revolution build momentum, the revolution where the CSS authors and web site users win. CSS is for the people, not big business.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=87yq372R4Ts
You say you got a re(al)solution….
Well you know….
We’d all love to see the plan….
You tell me it’s the institution….
Well you know….
You better free your mind instead….
.
May 28th, 2008 at 7:42 am
Sorry Molly, stuffed up with the copy paste. You can edit it if you like.
May 30th, 2008 at 8:35 am
y’all should know that i am now 2 months pregnant…
the docter said the due date is on december 13 2008….
hoping for a boy kuz everyone loves BOYS….
oh the website is going to be closed for working on the system starting as of tomorrow. please vist www.molly2.com to continue our chats……
thanks MOLLY
June 20th, 2008 at 4:45 am
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June 20th, 2008 at 3:39 pm
thank you
June 21st, 2008 at 12:34 pm
just got your zen of css book (it’s great btw), but found it kind of funny that your site doesn’t validate…
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thanks.
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September 29th, 2008 at 5:12 pm
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September 29th, 2008 at 5:46 pm
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September 29th, 2008 at 7:44 pm
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September 29th, 2008 at 8:38 pm
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October 1st, 2008 at 12:41 pm
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October 1st, 2008 at 1:26 pm
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October 1st, 2008 at 2:53 pm
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October 1st, 2008 at 9:31 pm
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October 1st, 2008 at 10:07 pm
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October 2nd, 2008 at 1:02 am
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October 2nd, 2008 at 1:55 am
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October 2nd, 2008 at 3:19 am
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October 4th, 2008 at 3:30 am
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October 4th, 2008 at 4:32 am
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October 4th, 2008 at 7:08 am
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October 4th, 2008 at 7:39 am
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October 4th, 2008 at 8:35 am
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October 4th, 2008 at 8:46 am
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October 4th, 2008 at 9:13 am
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October 4th, 2008 at 9:18 am
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October 4th, 2008 at 9:57 am
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October 4th, 2008 at 12:50 pm
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October 4th, 2008 at 2:39 pm
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October 4th, 2008 at 3:05 pm
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October 4th, 2008 at 4:28 pm
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October 4th, 2008 at 6:24 pm
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October 5th, 2008 at 7:10 am
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October 5th, 2008 at 7:25 am
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October 5th, 2008 at 8:49 am
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October 5th, 2008 at 9:19 am
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October 5th, 2008 at 10:10 am
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October 5th, 2008 at 10:54 am
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October 5th, 2008 at 12:32 pm
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October 5th, 2008 at 3:57 pm
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October 5th, 2008 at 4:55 pm
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October 5th, 2008 at 5:30 pm
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October 5th, 2008 at 7:29 pm
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October 5th, 2008 at 8:11 pm
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October 5th, 2008 at 8:56 pm
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October 5th, 2008 at 9:37 pm
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October 5th, 2008 at 9:41 pm
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October 6th, 2008 at 8:20 am
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October 6th, 2008 at 8:25 am
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October 6th, 2008 at 9:01 am
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October 6th, 2008 at 9:29 am
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October 6th, 2008 at 10:00 am
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October 6th, 2008 at 6:13 pm
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October 8th, 2008 at 1:57 am
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October 8th, 2008 at 2:52 am
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October 8th, 2008 at 3:31 am
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October 8th, 2008 at 6:45 am
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October 8th, 2008 at 10:22 am
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October 8th, 2008 at 10:42 am
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October 8th, 2008 at 11:18 am
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October 8th, 2008 at 1:49 pm
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October 8th, 2008 at 2:43 pm
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October 8th, 2008 at 5:50 pm
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October 8th, 2008 at 10:55 pm
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October 9th, 2008 at 1:10 am
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October 9th, 2008 at 2:32 am
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October 9th, 2008 at 3:52 am
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October 9th, 2008 at 5:20 am
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October 9th, 2008 at 6:52 am
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October 9th, 2008 at 8:13 am
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October 9th, 2008 at 12:20 pm
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October 11th, 2008 at 2:07 am
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October 11th, 2008 at 2:48 am
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October 11th, 2008 at 2:51 am
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October 11th, 2008 at 10:05 am
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October 11th, 2008 at 12:32 pm
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October 13th, 2008 at 1:47 am
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October 15th, 2008 at 2:31 am
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October 15th, 2008 at 3:09 am
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October 15th, 2008 at 3:57 am
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October 15th, 2008 at 4:43 am
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October 15th, 2008 at 4:47 am
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October 15th, 2008 at 12:17 pm
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October 15th, 2008 at 3:07 pm
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October 15th, 2008 at 5:55 pm
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October 15th, 2008 at 6:00 pm
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October 16th, 2008 at 4:30 am
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October 16th, 2008 at 7:00 am
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October 16th, 2008 at 8:53 am
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October 16th, 2008 at 9:41 am
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October 17th, 2008 at 5:29 am
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October 17th, 2008 at 9:56 am
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October 17th, 2008 at 12:02 pm
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