molly.com
Wednesday 19 December 2007
Yes Ladies and Gentlemen, We Have a Smiley
During the past week’s drama related to Microsoft’s lack of transparency and problems with working groups and browser vendors, it literally pained me so to have to keep my mouth shut when I knew there were some very good things happening.
I’m glad Bill Gates truly took the time to look into the communication issues, because to quote the man himself from our conversation last week: “There’s not like some deep secret about what we’re doing with IE.”
From the IEblog today, Dean Hachamovich writes:
“Now, with all that context, I’m delighted to tell you that on Wednesday, December 12, Internet Explorer correctly rendered the Acid2 page in IE8 standards mode. While supporting the features tested in Acid2 is important for many reasons, it is just one of several milestones for the interoperability, standards compliance, and backwards compatibility that we’re committed to for this release. We will blog more on these topics . . .
For IE8, we want to communicate facts, not aspirations. We’re posting this information now because we have real working code checked in and we’re confident about delivering it in the final product. We’re listening to the feedback about IE, and at the same time, we are committed to responsible disclosure and setting expectations properly. Now that we’ve run the test on multiple machines and seen it work, we’re excited to be able to share definitive information.
Would jumping up and down and saying “I told you so” be in order? No, because I couldn’t tell you so. However, I have long been saying that some good things are happening up in Redmond. I applaud the developers who had to keep their mouths closed due to NDA’s and did so under heavy scrutiny, and I applaud all those at Microsoft working hard and proving that they not only hear developer’s needs but understand them and are truly working to make a difference.
Bravo, IE Team, for the hard work and most especially for finally getting the go-ahead to restart this much needed conversation.
Filed under: professional, policies, standards, software, web design and development, WaSP, w3c, announcement, browsers, microsoft, community
Posted by: Molly | 2:07 pm |
December 19th, 2007 at 2:13 pm
Whoa. This is nuts. The world has turned upside down. “IE8 Standards Mode.” That phrase triggers deep tremors and convulsions. Keep the info coming!
December 19th, 2007 at 2:16 pm
Good news sure. But:
> I applaud the developers who had to keep their mouths closed due to NDA’s and did so under heavy scrutiny
Why? What’s the big secret? If Microsoft are working on IE8 and are trying to pass the Acid2 test then why is it a secret? Are they afraid of failure? The biggest problem with Internet Explorer development is that no one talks about Internet Explorer development. That’s the first bug they should fix.
Still good news though.
December 19th, 2007 at 2:22 pm
That is fantastic news, Molly!
Greg: I’m pretty sure that “IE8 standards mode” just means IE8 while using a Doctype and thus triggering Standards mode rendering. IE6 and IE7 have this just the same, it’s the opposite of Quirks mode. Non-IE browsers have it, too.
December 19th, 2007 at 2:22 pm
So… When do we get to play with the new/modified rendering engine? And what else is going to be in their beside improved CSS support?
Fabulous job by people on the team. Now get it to ship and we’ll be believers for at least all of next year.
December 19th, 2007 at 2:23 pm
Great to see IE passing the test too, great news.
I do second what Dean Edwards says though. Transparency is king, even for companies with dollars and reputations to protect. Being open about what’s going on need not mean jeopardize anything.
Regardless, I’m looking forward to hearing more from the IE team.
December 19th, 2007 at 2:28 pm
i just got goosebumps
December 19th, 2007 at 2:29 pm
Faruk: I hope you’re right. But I wonder if IE8 will introduce a third, “Actual Standards Compliance Mode,” or something. I’m just thinking of their reluctance to break current pages, which may use a correct doctype, but still rely on IE’s rendering bugs even when in regular standards compliance mode.
December 19th, 2007 at 2:34 pm
W00t!
December 19th, 2007 at 2:37 pm
Wow, now that was unexpected. I have tried to keep up with the recent news and discussions, and I think many many people will be glad to be hearing about this. Me included.
Heh, does that mean IE8 will be leapfrogging Firefox in standards support? Never thought I’d see the day…But the “standards mode” tidbit is veeeery interesting to see…
To the folks working on IE8, keep up the good work, and do let us know how work is progressing!
December 19th, 2007 at 2:38 pm
This is obviously great news for us developers but it still doesn’t stop us from supporting the ‘big brothers’ of IE8 (namely 7 and 6) for the near future. Unless IE8 is supported in Win2k and XP (which is pretty unlikely) there is still a huge part of the market to develop for.
Equally, its great to see Microsoft moving in the right direction. Kudos the Redmond boys for this development!
December 19th, 2007 at 2:40 pm
@Grant
“does that mean IE8 will be leapfrogging Firefox in standards support?”
Not on this evidence alone - Firefox 3 already passed Acid 2, before beta 2 even.
December 19th, 2007 at 2:41 pm
and ship it as a priority update, so all ie7 users will get and as many ie6 as humanly possible.
that would be awesome.
Great news though, keep it up.
December 19th, 2007 at 2:42 pm
@Tobz: If only the world were that fair.
I echo the kudos to Redmond, absolutely a step in the right direction.
December 19th, 2007 at 2:45 pm
That is good to see, but I don’t know that we’re at a “I told you so” point yet.
The ACID2 test was one piece. I’d still like to see support for XHTML and SVG, as well as the Canvas object, though I’d be willing to forgo the last one. Still, the company is pointed in the right direction.
December 19th, 2007 at 2:49 pm
Early Christmas present from Microsoft.
December 19th, 2007 at 2:56 pm
Good news to here. I also wonder if IE8, when released, will support, at the least XP… if its Vista only, then we have another big issue.
December 19th, 2007 at 3:09 pm
@Dean: I think the desire to keep things quiet, especially regarding this milestone, stems from the team not wanting to overpromise something and then fall short… (Example: Vista would have been FAR different had all promised features been included in the final shipped product.)
This is a good step, and one that I hope will in time make my job easier. As far as adoption is concerned… people running IE6 will only have their computers for so long.
December 19th, 2007 at 3:09 pm
[…] IE8 beta & Acid2… success. It’s a step in the right direction: molly.com Yes Ladies and Gentleman, We Have a Smiley __________________ A web design and web development forum […]
December 19th, 2007 at 3:11 pm
This is excellent news and quite unexpected to say the least. However, I have to question why this was not released under IE7 if it was so “easy” to do? (by easy, I mean it obviously didn’t take very long for them to do)
If this has been in works for quite some time, then again, why was it not put into IE7? If we’re going to have to wait a year for IE8 to come out (or longer, who knows) then this is going to just add one more browser to the mix that developers will have to support.
IE6 - completely broken
IE7 -semi broken
IE8 - fixed
I’d have much rather them waited on IE7 so as to incorporate this engine. Instead we get another version number and tons of legacy to support. I don’t get it.
December 19th, 2007 at 3:27 pm
Excellent. It looks like IE8 is going to be a completely different beast from its predecessors and 2008 a lot less rocky than it was looking last week.
There will really have to be a consumer awareness campaign next year to highlight to people that if they are using IE6 they are 7 years out of date. Pushing the browser out through updates isn’t enough. People need to know there are different browsers and browser versions out there and IT departments need to stop blocking IE7/8 as an upgrade.
December 19th, 2007 at 3:34 pm
@Greg, @Faruk,
The odds are extremely good that “IE8 Standards Mode” is a new mode, separate from quirks mode, almost-standards mode, and standards mode. Microsoft’s representatives in the HTML WG have made it clear that they would like the WG to provide a version indicator or some other explicit developer opt-in that IE can switch off of, to activate the new mode. Were such an indicator not present, IE8 will be bug-for-bug compatible with IE7.
December 19th, 2007 at 3:37 pm
Funny how this news comes out right after Opera files a complaint to the EU. Opera may want to consider eating their own words now and backing down. Opera doesn’t have perfect support of every web standard either.
December 19th, 2007 at 3:56 pm
[…] Dean Hachamovitch on the IEblog: Internet Explorer 8 and Acid2: A Milestone”. More by Molly E. Holzschlag: Yes Ladies and Gentleman, We Have a Smiley. Only a few days after Opera filed a complaint with the European Commission. […]
December 19th, 2007 at 3:58 pm
[…] Well, Opera must be a little red in the face right about now. A week after it sued Microsoft for not adequately supporting Web standards, the company said that a preliminary version of its Internet Explorer 8 browser passed Acid2, a test developed by the Web Standards Project to help browser vendors ensure proper support for Web standards. […]
December 19th, 2007 at 4:12 pm
Just goes to show that MS should have told us earlier and then opera would not have needed to file the suite
December 19th, 2007 at 4:12 pm
It is a strange situation to see the market leading browser catching up with the rest of the pack and being excited about it. The IE7 team made huge strides and it is great to hear IE8 is continuing their work. As a developer I’m really grateful for the hard work everyone has put in to bang heads together and get this far.
The browser market is bizarre to me. The community is coaxing the market leader to bring the product somewhere near the others in the market. People who know their stuff are working on an inferior product when they could be doing more exciting things with products that are streets ahead. I can’t help feeling that in a more transparent, fair market this would all have happened years ago and everyone would be much better off for it.
December 19th, 2007 at 4:21 pm
[…] It turns out that the IE team are probably the ones laughing now though, since the Acid2 test was passed on 12th December, the day Opera filed their complaint with the European Union. At least, it seems like Molly Holzschlag is excited about it, and so should she be, part of her job is to get the IE team concentrating on standards support. I’d like to congratulate all of them and hope to hear more announcements about IE8 soon, as I’m sure any other developer who has had to deal with incarnations of IE in the past. Standards support in the latest IE won’t solve all our problems, but it will go towards making our lives easier in the future. […]
December 19th, 2007 at 4:38 pm
Sorry to double post, but I’ve just seen how Ajaxian are covering this story and thought the headline should be shared with everyone.
“IE 8 now doesn’t trip on Acid”.
Fantastic
December 19th, 2007 at 4:42 pm
[…] Since Microsoft resumed working on the rendering engine for Internet Explorer they have shown a commitment to moving towards full standards support and explained why it would not be there in IE7 (see the interview with Chris Wilson at http://blogs.zdnet.com/web2explorer/?p=260). Heck, they even hired Molly to come and "help" them to make IE more standards complaint (yeah, I know that Molly would never get heated and yell or otherwise argue when someone did not get the importance of standards). It must have nearly killed her to keep quiet, you can hear it from Molly herself at http://www.molly.com/2007/12/19/yes-ladies-and-gentleman-we-have-a-smiley/ Technorati Tags: internet explorer,acid2,web standards […]
December 19th, 2007 at 4:51 pm
Good news. Gives us some hope for the future. Maybe we can avoid attaching extra stylesheets for IE8?
December 19th, 2007 at 4:54 pm
@Matt
Thanks for the tip. I hadn’t known that about Firefox 3 passing the test - I was aware of Opera being in line. I think this (yet another) indication I need to cut my feeds list down some…
December 19th, 2007 at 4:55 pm
@Georg
“Maybe we can avoid attaching extra stylesheets for IE8?”
Now wouldn’t that be nice…It’s fussy enough already needing stylesheets specific to IE6 and 7.
December 19th, 2007 at 7:27 pm
[…] Nater Kate nailed it in Molly’s post about the news: i just got goosebumps […]
December 19th, 2007 at 7:52 pm
Congratulations to that team!
I must admit, when I see “manage expectations” - I cringe. (And old boss of mine used it when he, basically, wanted to avoid being responsible for something that was his responsibility.) Why not admit that “the bar” is being set at certain height, and have done? Why “manage expectations”, as if the customer was incapable of perceiving that they are being manipulated?
Whenever I see that, I simply ignore what’s being said: it’s all about ensuring the expectation-expector isn’t asked to do too much.
Carolyn Ann
December 19th, 2007 at 8:49 pm
Beware folks. If you read what Dean says, “Which standards should we support?”, you will get a true feeling for where all this is headed. Acid2 is nice. Even cute. But what does that mean? Any vendor can tweak their code to pass Acid2 and it doesn’t mean a thing. Even Dean implies that.
I can’t possibly know what IE8 will really be like but this is all marketing and no substance.
December 19th, 2007 at 9:08 pm
[…] It’s coming from official sources that IE8 passes the Acid2 standards test. I’ve seen people blog about this today, and the reaction is mostly positive although for some it’s perhaps hard to believe? IE7 was not really much of a new version over IE6. IE6 is still being used more than IE7, so IE8 might be five years from now? But a good time in the right direction, Microsoft. Tags: IE, Web Standards […]
December 19th, 2007 at 9:40 pm
Oh, I forgot to add. Firefox 3.0 should be out soon!
December 19th, 2007 at 9:52 pm
Nice to hear Molly, I’m wondering if IE moved itself into a leadership role in this area over the next couple of years whether they would still be the focus of so much negativity.
It would be nice to see other browsers bundled into windows as well but now I’m just being xmas greedy lol.
Good news from IE then
December 20th, 2007 at 12:09 am
Finally, MH assisted/encouraged/abetted/kvetched to get IE8 on Acid[2]!
Now she has a right to kvell.
December 20th, 2007 at 12:24 am
[…] ฟังซุ่มเสียงจากทั้ง Dean Hachamovitch และ Molly E. Holzschlag แล้วมีท่วงทำนองคล้ายกับว่าไมโครซอฟท์เตรียมให้ IE8 รองรับมาตรฐานเต็มรูปแบบและมีความเข้ากันกับเว็บเก่าๆ ที่ไม่ได้ออกแบบตามมาตรฐาน คือ จะไม่ Break the Web (อย่างที่เกิดกับ Firefox กรณีที่เข้าเว็บไซต์ที่โค้ดไม่ได้มาตรฐาน ทั้งที่มี Quirk Mode รองรับเหมือนกัน) โดยเว็บเดิมที่ออกแบบและแสดงผลได้ดีกับ IE6 และ IE7 จะไม่ได้รับผลกระทบ ขณะที่เว็บที่ออกแบบตามมาตรฐานใหม่จะแสดงผลได้ถูกต้อง […]
December 20th, 2007 at 12:56 am
I must be dreaming. First i read the IE passes the ACID2 test and not 10 minutes later I see that 3DRealms has released a Duke Nukem Forever teaser! What’s next, Guns ‘n roses releasing their new album?
December 20th, 2007 at 1:56 am
Fantastic news. I am so tiered of using my budget on error fixing. I want to use that money on content, design and real developing. Cant wait. Lets hope MS does a good job pushing this upgrade asap and to XP aswell.
December 20th, 2007 at 2:07 am
IE8 passing the Acid2 test is great news. Congratulations.
However, the test itself is broken right now: The URI http://www.webstandards.org/404/ should return 404 for the test to work. It now returns 200.
December 20th, 2007 at 4:06 am
This is great news but can Microsoft please stop supporting IE6 and make a compelling argument for people to ditch IE6 so I can actually develop one website and not 2?
December 20th, 2007 at 4:48 am
Great news!
This would be a major step forward to a better web. For developers this would be true Web 2.0 =O)
Even though it is quite late (should have been IE7 passing the test actually), it is more then welcomed and very much needed. Just one more thing - we need users migrating away from IE6 as soon as possible, otherwise all those changes are still for nothing, you cant constantly develop 2 or 3 sites instead of 1.
December 20th, 2007 at 5:34 am
[…] Yes Ladies and Gentlemen, We Have a Smiley […]
December 20th, 2007 at 6:57 am
+1 to Microsoft. This was good news.
I wholeheartedly agree with Dean E, though. Applauding people for keeping their NDAs speaks positively about the people in question, who apparently honour their word. But it says there is something wrong still within MS. Those NDAs should not be there in the first place, at least not so restrictive.
And frankly they have hurt MS, as perhaps a screenshot after every major omprovement in the process would have kept not only Opera, but many of us more confident that progress was being made.
Now one hurdle has been passed. Many more are still there, though:
Is it the IE-teams intention to fix the following for IE8?
1. The inherit value on every applicable property: http://www.sitepoint.com/blogs/2007/11/22/in-all-fairness-%E2%80%A6-internet-explorer-still-stinks/
2. CSS 3 selectors (some ignorant people want “full” CSS3 support - as if that was possible today… I sat, start with the selectors) http://www.css3.info/selectors-test/test.html
3. CSS Color Level 3 except sections 3.3, 3.4, 3.5, and 4.5.2
4. Opacity
5. application/xhtml+xml, as well as NS-aware CSS parsing (@namespace) and DOM-methods.
6. W3C events
7. Numerous fixes in support of the DOM
8. SVG and CANVAS
And stop this Silverlight nonsense!
Etc. Etc.
Molly, will you try to get the NDA lifted so the developers can start talking about issues like these?
And while you are at it, to promote open standards, inspire MS to support ogg/teora and ogg/vorbis as a required part of HTML 5.
You will get another +1 from me for every issue addressed properly. Who knows, by the year 2010 I might even start to like Microsoft!
December 20th, 2007 at 7:23 am
Great news, but this won’t mean a thing until IE6 is as dead as a dead horse can be. It has been beaten long enough, but people still keep on hitting it, for whatever unfathomable reasons. I’m really looking forward to the times where we can create one style sheet and one set of CSS selectors for all browsers, but that won’t happen until a long time after IE8 and probably IE9 and IE10 is released.
Regarding the Opera complaint (it isn’t a suit; they don’t want money, they want compliance, transparency and an open market), I think it still applies. The Acid2 test may give an indication of what they have managed to do in IE8, but that doesn’t say anything of what they will do in future versions regarding standards support. If EU judges in favor of Opera in the matter, it forces Microsoft to adhere to standards not only in IE8, but in all future versions of the browser. If that’s in any way negative and something Opera should be ashamed of, then I must have been teleported into a reversed universe where good means bad, salt is sweet and winter means it’s time to pull out the Bermuda shorts and go surfing.
Sorry, but I am not impressed. Not particularly amused either. It’s good news, but nothing to be overly excited about. Not yet, at least; not until Microsoft commits to a plan of either replacing all instances of IE6 with IE8 or otherwise ridding the planet of the rotten mess that is IE6.
December 20th, 2007 at 7:26 am
I forgot to applaud Molly for the amazing work she is doing within Microsoft for this to become a reality. Thanks for representing all of us web developers within Microsoft’s closed gardens and tight firewalls, Molly. I’m quite certain that this wouldn’t have been possible without your remarkable knowledge, persistence and social skills. Thank you!
December 20th, 2007 at 7:41 am
[…] I would tend to take this video and this post from Molly Holzschlag as pretty clear signs that Microsoft, all the way up to Bill Gates, is much more engaged with the world of web standards than ever before. […]
December 20th, 2007 at 8:01 am
[…] Parte dessa nova guinada do Internet Explorer está acontecendo desde que a Microsoft contratou Molly E. Holzschlag, a diva e evangelizadora dos padrões web, para se juntar ao time de desenvolvimento do Internet Explorer desde o início deste ano. E como você pode acompanhar no site dela, eles tem feito um grande esforço para mudar a fama que o IE tem de relapso em relação aos padrões. Agora é só esperar pra ver! […]
December 20th, 2007 at 8:18 am
Woohoo! IE8 beta due Q1 2008! Great news!
December 20th, 2007 at 8:20 am
Sorry, I meant the first half of 2008. (According to the IEBlog).
December 20th, 2007 at 10:31 am
This comment from howtocreate.com:
“Note, however, that Microsoft have said that they will require authors to opt-in to use the IE 8 standards mode. How they will do this remains unknown, but it is possible that the Acid 2 test will not qualify. This means that IE 8 may not actually pass the Acid 2 test unless it is changed to include the new trigger, whatever that may be. This would mean that it fails the test. Even if they add a special hack to allow the Acid 2 test to pass when hosted on its current server, that will also constitute a fail, since the idea is that the test will pass no matter where it is hosted. If the real test does not produce a pass when hosted on any server or stored locally, then this page will treat it as a fail.
December 20th, 2007 at 12:33 pm
@Dean.Edwards.Name: The issue is politics and in my opinion lies in the middle tier of many, many companies. The visionaries aren’t necessarily the ones making the business decisions. The engineers aren’t necessarily the ones driving the technology decisions. It’s a mess and it’s not just Microsoft’s mess, but a hierarchical model (some might call it hegemony) that exists across organizations worldwide.
Alex Russell often, and always eloquently, points to the problems inherent to closed cultures. I couldn’t agree more. Open standards, open groups are far more efficient and productive in today’s world.
I must ask of myself: Is it better to walk away and not work to help shift those models into something we can all agree is more open and productive? The answer, for any evangelist / advocate must be a resounding “NO.” The answer for me is to keep prying as best as I am able at whatever loose doorways I can find. Even if that means signing NDAs and honoring them ethically, as painful as it can be.
As I always say: Idealistic? You bet. Optimistic? Not so sure anymore.
Time will tell.
December 20th, 2007 at 12:46 pm
BTW, thanks everyone for the incredible feedback. xoxoMols
December 20th, 2007 at 12:47 pm
Molly, I wasn’t really addressing you with my comment. I was addressing the Microsoft hierarchy. I’m sure you are doing the best you can at Redmond.
But the one thing you should really press on them is that they really need to improve their communication with web developers. All this mystery with NDAs and whatnot is totally unnecessary. The other browser manufacturers manage to come across as cheerful and co-operative. Microsoft come across as secretive and possibly underhanded. They’ve got a blog and they should use it more expansively. They don’t need to bare all but the odd hint at where they are headed would make a big difference to the community. At the moment we are not sure of the future of core technologies like CSS and JavaScript.
> Time will tell.
I don’t want time to tell, I want Microsoft to tell.
December 20th, 2007 at 1:46 pm
[…] Sim, essa imagem não é falsa (espero!), o futuro Internet Explorer versão 8 obedecerá aos padrões. Isso será um fato histórico se a versão final comprir o que promete. Há quanto tempo você xinga a Microsoft enquanto desenvolve um layout?! Isso vai acabar! Isso não quer dizer que usarei IE agora, nem perto disso, Firefox está a anos-luz dele, mas é uma notícia que merece ser comemorada. Fiquei sabendo no Revolução Etc, notícia original no site da evangelizadora dos padrões, que foi contratada pela Microsoft, Molly: Sim senhoras e senhores, nós temos um sorriso. […]
December 20th, 2007 at 4:30 pm
[…] So I’m glad that Opera are trying to break Microsoft’s monopoly. Being British, I also admire the plucky Norwegian underdog, and I’m personally convinced that Opera are concerned at the highest level with upholding standards. I’m persuaded by Molly of the sincerity of the I.E. team, but I have no faith that those at the top of Microsoft would give a shit about standards if their profits or monopoly were threatened. […]
December 20th, 2007 at 4:32 pm
[…] 2 - molly.com » Yes Ladies and Gentleman, We Have a Smiley tssss (tags: ie standards) […]
December 20th, 2007 at 6:31 pm
…. then we now only have to wait until it will be released … in 1 year ? 2 years ? …
and when will enough people be using it ?
December 20th, 2007 at 8:29 pm
Here’s a question. Is Microsoft guaranteeing IE8 RELEASE will pass Acid2 whenever it comes out?
December 21st, 2007 at 3:40 am
Dean,
The blog isn’t really about two way communication anymore. The current Senior VP in charge of Windows isn’t interested in transparency for Microsoft and has stated such to quite a few people (there was a story on a Zdnet blog about this within the last day or so, in fact).
Pretty much all of the people that really pushed for IE to be more open with web developers no longer work on IE. The primary founder of the IE Blog, Scott Stearns, who was the Director of Testing, still works at Microsoft but left the IE team after Vista went Gold. Others that I know of have also since left. We’re not going to get very far with a team (or a company) that is not really interested in communication but in announcements to be lauded.
I’m sure they will unveil grand things at various points but I don’t expect a lot of build up to these things. They will just suddenly appear (or not) on a random day just like this announcement did. The Mix conference will probably be te first real unveiling.
As to Firefox 3 passing Acid 2. Schrep (Mozilla’s VP of Engineering) and I were discussing it today. As I recall, Trunk builds (which is where Firefox 3 is built from) have passed since early December, 2006 (in other words, for a year). The difference here is that we make our nightlies available so others can see the work (along with the open bug database).
Personally, I don’t expect IE8 to do anything really dramatic. Will it be more standards compliant? Sure, I expect it will. Will it introduce anything actually innovative to the web? No, it won’t. Microsoft is playing a game that is the combination of both catching up for the years lost and in trying to maintain a minimal set of features to be relevant. Since Microsoft has never truly embraced the web and has things like Silverlight out there, I really wouldn’t expect them to try to do anything radical with IE instead of the in-house stuff. There’s no real return on that invesment of resources from their point of view, is there? After shipping four versions of IE and working on three browsers in my tech career, I think I can guess the way the wind is blowing fairly well here.
December 21st, 2007 at 3:50 am
The problem with IE lies not in what it can do but what they leave out. Remember that famous quote from MSDN that they only implement features they feel are a benefit to their customers. (Or words to that effect.) Unless that policy has changed we may see display:table implemented, but other parts of the spec missing, or worse broken. This has been the way with IE6 and 7 of course. (xhtml+xml for example, not to mention the many layout bugs.) But one has to hope they are now genuinely following standards, and aiming to follow as many of them as possible, not just enough to pass Acid 2 and make it look like they really care about stuff like CSS. Roll on the IE8 beta.
December 21st, 2007 at 8:51 am
Well the last 24 hours has been a real turn around. If you have been following the CSS WG mailing list lately you will note that there is a huge shiff towards transparency which I congratulate the IE team for. Only the other night Markus Mielke announced that “hasLayout will be history with IE8″
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2007Dec/0151.html
So IE8 that passes the Acidtest2 and has abandoned hasLayout is a tremendous step towards standards support. IE8 will also have support for display table properties. So what designers and developers have dreamed about for so long could be reality buy the end of next year. Lets now stop the IE and Microsoft bashing and work together for a more open and standard complaint web.
@Molly
I guess you may have started this ball rolling and indeed it has caused a lot of controversy and havoc along the way but within a two weeks some real progress and amazing things have happen. Thank you.
December 21st, 2007 at 11:06 am
Seriously, I still am wondering why your considered one of the top ten most influential people in blogging. Your biased and pretty clueless. But, it’s nice to see that your intregity matches your knowledge of Microsoft consumer practices. Another aspect, if you knew anything other then “spin” you would KNOW that the neglect for MS to correct the browser to adhere to the W3C’s RFC has been LONG standing. The Company Micorsoft is just avoiding a anti-trust issue by dancing elegantly through what it’s responsibilties should have been to the consumer of thier products for more then a decade. The ONLY people that your influencing are those who are to lazy to desire to know anything but “mis-information” and corporate greed.
December 21st, 2007 at 4:04 pm
Chris,
“Remember that famous quote from MSDN that they only implement features they feel are a benefit to their customers. ”
The line, as stated now on Dean’s post about this, is “Which standards will we implement?” Similar to what you remember.
Microsoft is not wanting to fit in. Microsoft only does what is good for Microsoft. Which a business should do when failure only hurts itself, but failure in regards to standards hurts us all.
December 21st, 2007 at 4:25 pm
[…] molly.com » Yes Ladies and Gentlemen, We Have a Smiley IE8 will pass the Acid2 test. Via Tiffany. (tags: ie microsoft standards webdev browsers css acidtest) […]
December 22nd, 2007 at 11:31 am
[…] Internet Explorer Acid-2-Test Es sieht ganz danach aus, dass sich der Internet Explorer 8 an HTML- und CSS-Standards halten wird. Mehr dazu von Molly Holzschlag in Yes Ladies and Gentlemen, We Have a Smiley. IE 8 Kommentar oder Trackback von Ihrer Seite. Ihre Meinung Name […]
December 22nd, 2007 at 4:26 pm
[…] A noticia da Molly, foi a de que o IE8 passou no teste Acid2(é um teste de compatibilidade com os padrões, feito para os browser, e desenvolvimendo pela Web Standards Project). […]
December 22nd, 2007 at 11:05 pm
[…] I read about this first on the site of Molly Holzschlag, who is actively working with the IE team to get the browser into shape. There is an official announcement on the IE team blog. I had to do a double take, then a triple take to be sure I had read it properly! […]
December 23rd, 2007 at 9:26 am
[…] Molly also looks at the joyous passing of IE8’s test. There is a good quote in her post from the IE blog. Molly has an earlier post where she interviews Bill Gates that is also worth checking out. […]
December 23rd, 2007 at 11:26 am
I think if Microsoft wants to be taken seriously they need to first kill off IE6. Otherwise, what’s the point of releasing a newfangled browser when you’re always playing to the lowest common denominator, IE6?
December 23rd, 2007 at 6:13 pm
Ara,
How do you propose that Microsoft “kill off” IE6? You do realize that there are governments around the world, as well as large corporations, that expect the ten years of support for Windows XP that Microsoft promised them when they bought their software? IE6 is part of Windows XP and cannot be killed until XP support ends. That is the same reason that the IE team still has to support IE5.01 on certain platforms. Their support is tied to operating system releases.
Even leaving aside a lack of official support, there are hundreds of millions of PCs running old copies of Windows (XP or otherwise) that have not updates to even run service packs, let alone IE7. Microsoft can’t make this installed base simply disappear. All lack of support does is open these people up to *more* viruses and malware.
Asa Dotzler and I were just talking about this at work the other day. Microsoft has no mechanism to “revoke” installed software, like IE6. If they did, everyone would be taking them to court crying “anti-trust!!” when they used it.
December 24th, 2007 at 7:16 am
@Al,
Well for one thing, the situation you just described is of Microsoft’s own making. They belligerently insisted in tying IE into the OS and as a result have deeply entrenched a broken browser into the marketplace. Acting like that isn’t the situation helps no one and is quite frankly insulting. Microsoft needs to assume responsibility for their actions.
In fact, I posit that IE8 is of no practical use to the web development community. Web developers cannot use any of IE8’s newfangled features and can only marginally take advantage of any fixes. We have no choice but to keep playing to Microsoft’s lowest common denominator, IE6. If anything, we need to accommodate yet another browser vying for marketshare. But as long as IE6 is around, IE8 will just suffer the same consequences Microsoft wrought on their competitors. Just like we aren’t able to use any “advanced” CSS selectors, Canvas, SVG, application/xhtml+xml, and many other advancements, we can’t use anything IE8 has to offer.
If Microsoft wanted to be taken seriously, they’d initiate a program whereby they’d fund or subsidize the upgrading of IE6 reliant enterprise web apps and then update IE6 with a forced security update.
December 28th, 2007 at 6:56 pm
Thanks for keeping us posted Molly.
For those who may read this comment:
Isn’t the message clear? Microsoft wants to openly work with the web development community and is striving to achieve full standards compliance. They have to juggle backward compatibility from flawed implementations yet produce future compatibility at the same time. Then, stay on top of future developments like HTLM 5. Browser life cycles are now approaching 4-6 years in turnover and will be continued to be driven by specifications, unlike the proprietary browser wars in the 90’s. IE is here to stay as long as Windows exists.
There will always be a conflict for what Microsoft wants to offer and what open source wants to offer. One’s a business that has a responsibility to deliver to its shareholders and customers. The other wants to push forward advances in technology with freedom of choice. Those are two diametrically opposite motivations.
Change is always good if it is for the better. At least we have evolved to the point where standards are now taken seriously and it means something to not play by the rules. Microsoft has learned this lesson the hard way and has changed.
And if you really want to change the world, go create a fully standards compliant web browser from scratch. Do all the programming, the testing, attending specification committee meetings and the like. Its really more than one can chew if not to be humbled by.
Its not as easy as you think it is when you are “coding” with markup and CSS.
December 29th, 2007 at 8:10 am
> Microsoft wants to openly work with the web development community and is striving to achieve full standards compliance.
December 29th, 2007 at 8:10 am
> Microsoft wants to openly work with the web development community and is striving to achieve full standards compliance.
Sorry, the former pos wasn’t complete…
Well, a big yellow smiley is not everything one wants. What if microsoft only works on CSS? Then IE will still be a big pain.
Will MS change IE8’s parser so it’s forward compatible with HTML 5 (it actually isn’t even compatible to HTML 4..)?
Will the Script/DOM-Engine finally be overhauled? No more getElementById-Bugs no more strange JScript mysteries!
Only if those basic tools are repaired, web developers will truly be free to author compilant webpages.
January 2nd, 2008 at 2:48 pm
[…] E mais um ano de bons frutos para a Mozilla. O Firefox aumentou seu número de usuários em 2.8% no ano de 2007, já seu rival IE saiu perdendo na história com um decréscimo de 3.9%. Foi anunciado também o fim do Netscape. O browser que um dia foi o maior concorrente do IE, enfim tem seu sepultamento decretado pela sua atual proprietária, a AOL. Ainda hoje o IE, graças as práticas “monopolistas”(é a minha opinião!!!) da Microsoft, ainda detem a maior fatia de usuários dos browsers. Como já dizia um amigo meu: “onde existir uma cópia ‘genérica’ do Windows, ali estará o IE”. Ao menos em grande parte eis um bom motivo pra essa fatia ser tão grande rss. Nas projeções atuais o IE tem pouco mais de 76% de participação de mercado, o Firefox pula dos 14% doze meses atraz para os atuais 16.8%, o Safari, que agora também possui versão para Windows é o terceiro da lista com 5.6% e o coitadinho do Netscape aparece na quinta posição com 0.6%…não da mais pra ele coitado. A Mozilla anuncia para este ano a mais nova versão do Firefox, melhor suporte a CSS, Microformats, segurança e é meta da fundação alcançar uma fatia acima dos 20%. Mas quem também promete novidade é a Microsoft, com o IE8. Depois da contratação da Molly Holzschlag, evangelizadora dos padrões web e a quase um ano na linha de frente no desenvolvimento da nova versão do IE, parece que o Bill Gates vai começar a colher bons frutos. Pipocou na net hoje que o IE8 passou no teste Acid2 (quem lembra da carinha amarela, escrita hello world em cima, que quando testado no IE6 aparecia deform…hu mm…quer dizer, nao aparecia!!!). Então, no IE8 carregou de maneira correta! Mas ainda é cedo pra fazer festa, vamos acompanhar a evolução e lá na frente a gente vê no que deu. Tomara que não seja mais um IE7 da vida…aff Enquanto isso eu continuo com o Opera! É o quarto colocado da fila, mas que faz muito bonito! […]
January 3rd, 2008 at 10:57 am
[…] Molly, Yes Ladies and Gentlemen, We Have a Smiley […]
January 4th, 2008 at 2:09 pm
forum thanks
January 11th, 2008 at 11:31 pm
So here’s the real truth folks. IE8 does NOT pass Acid2.
When Microsoft announced that IE8 passed Acid2 on an internal build, I was very suspicious when they started talking of “IE8 standards mode”. “Uh, oh. What is this?”, I asked, and how does it apply to web standards.
Turns out, it is a proprietary “flag” which must be inserted into your web page markup to trigger this “IE8 standards mode” which, of course, makes that part of your page invalid. This flag is not set by the Acid2 test so…guess what my friends…IE8 does not pass Acid2!
January 12th, 2008 at 1:42 pm
I’m a bit torn on what to believe here. Molly used to stand up for all that was wrong with the web browser world, and the lack of commitment to standards and the developer community.
Now, you are telling us “bravo” for those that said nothing about IE8 development? - WHAT!?!?
Are you serious?!
If IE is developing a feature.. a new feature called ZZMRFlow that will revolutionize the web as we know it - then fine, keep that a secret. However keeping a secret that you are making IE8 actually wake up and observe and follow some of the standards that were laid out, and passed by every other browser months or years ago, IS NOT SOMETHING to keep secret!
And a Rob says.. if this in “IE8 Standards Mode” (which by definition is NOT-STANDARD), then a.) This goes against all the efforts of Bloggers everywhere trying to get MS to fix IE, and also means that NO-IE-MOST-CERTAINLY-DOES-NOT-PASS-THE-ACID2-TEST
Absolutely dumbfounded at the MSIE Team naivety.
January 12th, 2008 at 6:31 pm
More info. Apparently, they used an offline doctored version of the Acid2 page, which is what you see in their news releases and videos. Microsoft has not said they “pass” Acid2. They only say they “render” the smiley face. IE8 cannot and will not pass the actual online Acid2 test.
January 16th, 2008 at 6:59 pm
This is patently good headlines for us developers though it still doesn’t stop us from ancillary a ‘big brothers’ of IE8( namely 7 as well as 6) for a nearby destiny . Unless IE8 is upheld in Win2k as well as XP( that is flattering doubtful) there is still a outrageous partial of a marketplace to rise for.
January 17th, 2008 at 11:41 pm
@Rob
I really want to see your face when you see IE8 passing the test on the official site… I’m sure it will not be anything like the smily face inside the browser… Guess who “smiles” last… and yes, it’s not gonna be you, trust me.
January 21st, 2008 at 3:59 pm
What good will this do when a good 80% of IE browsers in use are still IE6?
Why cannot a superrich company like Microsoft go and update the IE6 browser and get rid of its bugs like FireFox when they are found. I do not mean 100% of the bugs, but I am sure that if the top 10 or 20 of them where eliminated designing a web page for IE would be much simpler, making my life simpler and less frustrating.
I have begun to dislike IE with a passion, but I cannot ignore it as the majority of browsers that will render the websites I design use IE.
January 23rd, 2008 at 6:24 am
very good
January 23rd, 2008 at 6:25 am
thanks
January 23rd, 2008 at 6:25 am
thank you
January 24th, 2008 at 12:22 am
[…] Via Molly comes word of one particular milestone that has previously eluded the Internet Explorer team — they have finally passed the Web Standards Project’s Acid2 test! […]
January 25th, 2008 at 4:42 am
Good news that browser evolution is making progress.
February 2nd, 2008 at 12:30 am
[…] Via Molly comes word of one particular milestone that has previously eluded the Internet Explorer team — they have finally passed the Web Standards Project’s Acid2 test! […]
February 3rd, 2008 at 7:23 pm
There are many useful informations in this great article…I really enjoy reading the whole blog that you write. Thanks!..
March 7th, 2008 at 2:18 pm
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March 10th, 2008 at 6:01 am
[…] Sim, eu já tinha ouvido. Sim, é notícia do ano passado. Mas só acreditei vendo. […]
March 16th, 2008 at 7:21 am
[…] Via Molly comes word of one particular milestone that has previously eluded the Internet Explorer team — they have finally passed the Web Standards Project’s Acid2 test! […]
March 30th, 2008 at 6:28 am
thanks
March 30th, 2008 at 12:56 pm
[…] Via Molly comes word of one particular milestone that has previously eluded the Internet Explorer team — they have finally passed the Web Standards Project’s Acid2 test! […]
March 31st, 2008 at 3:06 am
Thanks a lot…
April 5th, 2008 at 8:37 am
it s very useful info and your site very interesting, thx
April 8th, 2008 at 10:40 am
Thanks for very interesting article. I really enjoyed reading all of your posts. It?s interesting to read ideas, and observations from someone else?s point of view? makes you think more. So please keep up the great work.
All the best
July 25th, 2008 at 10:07 pm
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August 6th, 2008 at 12:04 am
Via Molly comes word of one particular milestone that has previously eluded the Internet Explorer team — they have finally passed the Web Standards Project’s Acid2 test!