molly.com
Wednesday 5 December 2007
Conversation with Bill Gates about IE8 and Microsoft Transparency
Yesterday I was once again honored to have the opportunity to speak directly with Bill Gates at Mix n’ Mash about issues pertaining to standards and the upcoming IE8. Concerned about a lack of forthcoming information to the designer and developer community regarding IE8 and Web standards, I asked Bill if he could, in the spirit of a more open Microsoft, find out what was going on. Here is the transcript of our conversation (with some repairs where the transcriptionist couldn’t hear), along with a photo of the fantastic Mix n’ Mash crew.
(From ltr: Jonathan Snook, Julie Lerman, Kelly Goto, Rob Howard, Bill Gates, Molly Holzschlag, Kip Kniskern, Jesse Warden, Keith Peters and Erik Natzke.)
MOLLY HOLZSCHLAG: So, I have a little bit of an infrastructure question, as related to MIX and the open conversation and transparency. A few years ago, MIX was a big information and conversation about the opening of ideas, it was about when in the specific we talked about the browser, IE 7, a lot of interest in that, a lot of talking about it. So, for the last year or so, I’ve been working, I’ve been a consultant here with the IE and tools teams to try and help get standards implementation to be strong, and we see some really great advances.
But very recently there seems to be a shift in infrastructure, and I don’t really know exactly what happened, but what I understand, my understanding is that IE sits on the Web platform rather than in the — excuse me, on the platform, on the Windows platform rather than the Web, and something seems to have changed where there is no messaging now for the last six months to a year going out on the IE team. They seem to have lost the transparency that they had been able to get some momentum going on in the IE 7 phase, in the year and a half since MIX06.
So, I’m very concerned about this, because being the person here that’s supposed to be the liaison between designers and developers for the Web and the browser conversation, this conversation seems to have been pretty much shut down, and I’m very concerned as to why that is, and how we can correct it.
BILL GATES: I’ll have to ask Dean what the hell is going on. I mean, we’re not — there’s not like some deep secret about what we’re doing with IE.
MOLLY HOLZSCHLAG: But they’re not letting people talk about it. I do realize that there is a new engine, there is some other information, and this information is not being made public — we are being asked not to talk about it. So, I’m concerned about that.
BILL GATES: I’ll ask Dean what’s going on. I mean, is IE 8 represented at MIX? I assume it is.
JENNIFER RITZINGER: Yes.
MOLLY HOLZSCHLAG: To what extent?
JENNIFER RITZINGER: To be determined
MOLLY HOLZSCHLAG: So, at MIX08 then?
JENNIFER RITZINGER: There will be disclosure by MIX08.
MOLLY HOLZSCHLAG: By MIX08, then.
JENNIFER RITZINGER: Yes.
BILL GATES: There’s a paradox about disclosure, which is when you’re far away from doing something you’re super open; when you’re very close to doing something you’re open; when you’re making your cut list of what you can do and not do, then particularly because — well –
MOLLY HOLZSCHLAG: it sets expectations and that causes trouble?
BILL GATES: Yeah, and so I don’t know where Dean is in terms of if he’s willing to commit what’s in IE 8 and what’s not in IE 8. In terms of standards support, he’ll see that it’s a glass half full. It adds a bunch of new stuff we didn’t have before, it doesn’t add everything that everybody wants us to do.
MOLLY HOLZSCHLAG: I mean, really IE 7 made some great advances, so . . .
BILL GATES: No, and believe me, Dean gets this stuff.
MOLLY HOLZSCHLAG: Oh, Dean totally gets it, and that’s why I’m concerned, because they have always been so forward facing.
BILL GATES: I’ll look into it.
MOLLY HOLZSCHLAG: Yeah, do. It would mean a lot to the design and development communities.
BILL GATES: I mean, I will look into it.
BILL GATES: We do sometimes have MIX — a lot of how the MIX agenda gets set is the tools guys, and we need to make sure the Win — yeah, we have two organizations. I mean, they’re totally complementary, but we should make sure the Windows messages come through in MIX. I know last year the Windows group felt like their messages could have — we could have done an even better job on the Windows related messages, that that didn’t happen. So, we’ll double check that.
MOLLY HOLZSCHLAG: Thank you.
Today, on the IE blog, the now official name of “IE8″ has been announced. Before, or by March of this year at MIX, there will be some news I’m sure will be of interest to anyone working with Internet Explorer.
Filed under: standards, software, web design and development, w3c, announcement, browsers, microsoft, ie7, community
Posted by: Molly | 6:11 pm |
December 5th, 2007 at 6:22 pm
I’m sure your exchange probably prompted the post on the IE blog
Some news is better than no news. Keep fighting the good fight, Molly!
December 5th, 2007 at 6:26 pm
Great conversation. I remember talking to you about IE back at a Boagworld meet-up, either this year or last? Nice to know that they are adding stuff that wasn’t in there before.
Just look forward to seeing it for myself once IE8 is released. Although i’ll still have to change code to be compatible with IE6 + 7. Things can only get better, right?
December 5th, 2007 at 6:35 pm
Interesting.
December 5th, 2007 at 6:36 pm
Is there any chance that IE 8 will appeal to the non-techy folks? Enough to get them to upgrade to it and leave behind IE 5 + 6 at the very least?
That would be a real blessing, imo.
December 5th, 2007 at 6:44 pm
Thanks again, Ambassador Molly.
It would be disappointing if IE8 wasn’t released in ‘08 … I’d be happy with a release a year, from now on. Every 9-12 months was a fine plan (just gotta stick to it).
December 5th, 2007 at 7:01 pm
Interesting conversation, indeed. Thanks to you, Molly, for asking the tough questions directly to the man.
I’d kind of echo Bridget’s question. Is there any reason we should *care* about IE8, given the rather poor adoption rate thus far for IE7? New browser that support more goods are terrific — if people use them. IE7’s been out for quite a little while now, and I still don’t see any light at the end of the tunnel for being able to stop worrying so much about IE6 (and older) users.In order for adoption to be high, there needs to be some compelling end-user features, or features that appeal to the IT guys that have to install this new behemoth on the computer of all 5000 employees in their company. Frankly, at this point, I think MS’s time would be better spent figuring out how to get people to use their latest browser, rather than adding more support for newer standards to one that won’t be out for nine months or so.
I guess I’m less interested in when IE8 is going to come out than I am in when I’m practically going to be able to *use* some of the new stuff that’s supported, even in IE7.
December 5th, 2007 at 7:33 pm
The silence after 7 release seemed typical to me. I mean, after IE6 we didn’t hear anything…. I’m actually surprised that we might see IE8 next year — I would have put it 2 years out.
After reading this and the related IEBlog, I’m actually worried. Something smells fishy.
Please tell me they aren’t going to foster all rendering off to Word like they did with Outlook….
December 5th, 2007 at 7:34 pm
Very interesting, the bit about the “new enginge”. How new, one wonders? A complete remake or just an incrementally improved engine?
December 5th, 2007 at 7:36 pm
There is distinct perception that MS would release every 9-12 months. If this can be maintained with very distinct improvements (like following a few more of the “recommendations”) then this will cement Microsoft’s standing. At present for a lot of the development/design community Microsoft is like a failing child than has just got their first B. We are all waiting to see if this was a fluke. IE8 is MS critical third album (music wise).
I also question if Bill has any relevancy anymore.
I too would like to see a improved adoption rate. At present IE 6 is still the primary development browser percentage wise. There needs to be a push (beyond vista) to get IE 7 into the corporate SOEs.
You still didn’t tell us why Snook got Bill “annoyed”
December 5th, 2007 at 7:36 pm
Safe to assume we’re going to see Silverlight/Expression Engine built into IE8, along with requisite marketing push?
Funny to think of MS going in both directions at once with IE8: better standards support and renewed proprietary efforts.
December 5th, 2007 at 7:43 pm
Maybe the lesson here is that after the IE6 experience, developers aren’t keen to simply trust that silence means work is going on. MS cannot afford to lapse into radio silence if it actually wants to maintain the momentum which briefly appeared around IE7.
If they’re doing their cut list, much better to say so than say nothing… and why not tell us about the cut list? It would be a chance to explain *why* we don’t get certain things. It’s not like we’re talking about proprietary information here - we’re talking about whether a product will meet existing standards.
As for what I want from IE8… I want it to herald an aggressive push to get people to upgrade from IE6. Is there any indication why IE7 adoption has been so lacklustre? Does MS feel it has a solution for that problem? Here we are talking about IE8 and yet we’re still stuck screaming at IE6 bugs every other day because it still has majority share (depending on source of course).
IE8 itself… I want it to finally support CSS properly, or at least in a manner consistent with other browsers. I think the web industry has run out of ways to say that!
I’d also like to see it plug a few gaps in its XHTML support, specifically thinking of the OBJECT element here which just won’t play nicely.
In short… in IE8, we’re still waiting for the basics. CSS, XHTML… we want the IE to finally catch up with Opera, Firefox and Safari.
December 5th, 2007 at 7:43 pm
Thanks to Molly and Snook, and all the others who took the time to travel and further the conversation.
For me, fixing absolute positioning and hasLayout, adding generated content, and reaching sufficient adoption that IE6 can be dropped, would be awesome.
Looking forward to IE Desktop Online Web Browser Live Professional Ultimate Edition, er, IE8!
December 5th, 2007 at 7:49 pm
Thanks for pushing the case Molly! IE really must catch-up to where all the other browsers have been for years. It has been a pain and a time and huge dollar sink hole building to standards then compensating for MS IE (it is much quicker building to standards first them compensate for IE than build to IE then the rest of the browsers). I am hearing a lot of developer not working about IE 6 and on Intranets encouraging standards compliant browsers to streamline the development process.
December 5th, 2007 at 7:58 pm
I do understand backward compatability is a huge undertaking. And I have read Chris (Wilson)’s writings on his approach and concerns with all of that. I also understand that doing something like inheriting (and then of course forking) Webkit hasn’t been looked at as a realistic approach to “fixing” IE.
biggest concerns for the community are:
* full css3 support
* correct DOM implementation (can we lose * html for ie8? please?)
* better ECMAScript support (at least get on par with ff3/webkit)
what else?
maybe “in browser” check for updates functionality, not dependant on windows update?
more frequent builds / releases that are browser only and not service pack dependant?
December 5th, 2007 at 8:36 pm
@Nater kane:
The “* html” hack has already been removed. IE7 doesn’t support it, so it only applies to IE6 and earlier.
Other than that, Ben said everything I was going to say.
December 5th, 2007 at 9:41 pm
I’m glad to hear that Mr. Gates is going to push the issue. I’m looking forward to IE8.
As far as features go, I would probably be different than most. I would be perfectly happy if there wasn’t much CSS3 support as long as there is consistency with other browsers.
If IE8 and Firefox rendered the same markup, the same way, I would be thrilled. Once the major browsers are all on the same page, it will be easier for them to cohesively move forward together.
December 6th, 2007 at 2:35 am
The question I keep asking myself is why on Earth Microsoft does not include IE7 in XP SP3? Wouldn’t it be the excellent opportunity to improve its adoption rate, to make browsing the internet safer for millions, and to make thousands of web developers happy? I simply don’t get it. Now maybe the answer, I was looking for, is this: IE8 and SP3 will come out roughly at the same time or real close. Even then, in my opinion, IE7 in SP3 would be a much better choice than leaving people with IE6.
Would you please allow me to translate the transcript to Hungarian and publish it on my blog? I’ll link it back to you, of course.
December 6th, 2007 at 2:51 am
@balbage : by all means, tell the world!
Yes, please, publish the transcript into Hungarian (my father’s blood),
I will do what I can to make sure it gets seen.
you’re awesome, and I want to come back to Hungary sometime. I felt very much at home there
xoxoxoMolly
December 6th, 2007 at 4:13 am
hmm - new engine - and nobody talks about it? maybe something big is going on
they switch to webkit - yeah !!1!
just in my dreams
December 6th, 2007 at 4:22 am
I am a Chinese student majoring in Information management and Information System.I want to know that when do you think we could use the IE8 ??
Thank you.
December 6th, 2007 at 5:05 am
Molly, that conversation does NOT reassure me. Everything after IE4 has drifted further and further away from standard. IE7 fixed what for developers? Something like 6 bugs, a handful of quirks, and added a couple new features like transparent PNG and full CSS1. Oh boy! CSS1! Welcome to 1997!
When IE7 was announced and the beta was put out, I remember distinctly seeing you posting begging everyone to remain calm as we howled at how little MS had done with 6 *years* and their amazing piggy bank available. So now, we see you in front of Microsoft jabbing them in the face with a hard question that they HAD to know was coming, and they had precisely zero answers. None. About a product they KNEW they were announcing, knew the development community would be watching, and had watched said community flood them with questions and comments for a year that began to sound like a community-wide mantra in their repetition:
“WHERE IS FULL CSS? WHERE IS BETTER JAVASCRIPT SUPPORT? WHERE IS A DEBUGGER THAT DOESN’T SUCK?”
We said all of it for 6 years about IE6, we said it for a year about IE7, and now they aren’t prepared to answer those specific questions (which are ALL that matters to “DEVELOPERS DEVELOPERS DEVELOPERS DEVELOPERS”) as they announce the next product.
I don’t smell fish. I smell an entire cow pasture full of bullshit on their part. Thank you for putting them up to such a rough question… their silence on the issue is more telling than any spin-filled announcement could ever be, and it tells me “It’s highly likely not a damn thing has changed”
I’m not looking forward to having to code for *4* different browsers now: all 3 versions of IE + standards. This is gonna suck.
December 6th, 2007 at 8:33 am
“hmm - new engine - and nobody talks about it? maybe something big is going on
they switch to webkit - yeah !!1!”
More likely that they ported what used to be IE for the Mac back over to Windows. Before its ultimate demise being relegated to rendering web pages for a proprietary MSN for Mac web browser, it was quite a robust, highly-standards compliant browser. Of course it had its quirks and limitations too, but I think it’d be better than writing from scratch. An about face using a competing open source platform seems quite unlikely. MS already owns the IE for Mac codebase, it’s not being utilized. And at one time, it once shared the same codebase of its Windows counterpart.
Just an educated guess though… if I were them and needed a new engine, I might look to myself first.
December 6th, 2007 at 8:34 am
great post molly
December 6th, 2007 at 8:37 am
New engine? Uh oh. We’ve already got 4 to worry about.
December 6th, 2007 at 8:40 am
> IE for the Mac… was quite a robust, highly-standards compliant browser
Ha! Compared to IE 5 for Windows, yeah. Compared to today’s browsers, it’d be a nightmare.
December 6th, 2007 at 8:49 am
Sorry for yet another comment, but could people clarify what they mean by poor adoption of IE 7?
Microsoft says IE 7 is the most popular browser in the US and the UK:
http://blogs.msdn.com/ie/archive/2007/11/30/the-first-year-of-ie7.aspx
Although I won’t be happy until IE 7 has wiped IE 6 off the face of the web, they don’t seem to be doing too badly.
December 6th, 2007 at 8:53 am
“Ha! Compared to IE 5 for Windows, yeah. Compared to today’s browsers, it’d be a nightmare.”
You do know that there was work done on the IE Mac platform after IE 5? IE6 for the Mac was in development, and in fact after Safari was released, even though IE6 for the Mac was scrapped, that browser did get released, but was only available with their MSN for Mac offering.
In any case, that browser was far superior to both Windows IE6 and IE67 in terms of CSS support. I don’t know about JS support, that’s a separate issue anyway.
Look it up, there used to be support charts that included the MSN for Mac browser. Most all of CSS 2, in addition to some CSS3. Almost all of CSS3’s selectors were implemented, for example.
Point being, MS does have another browser engine sitting around that’s probably a better choice for a new engine that starting over from scratch.
December 6th, 2007 at 8:54 am
God help us all if they picked the “Word” engine, like they did for email.
December 6th, 2007 at 9:17 am
I can appreciate Microsoft keeping their mouth shut. Every time they open it, they catch hell.
Decades ago, as a kid, on a ball court in a very hostile environment and the team enduring an entire game of abuse from the bleachers, at the end of that winning game, the coach looked up into those stands from the ball court and simply pointed to the scoreboard and did so without saying a single word. He didn’t have to speak one damned word .. none of us did.
Maybe Microsoft is using the same strategy. Of course that will turn on how IE8 will be viewed. If it is a dud and anyone recalls this specific post, which I doubt, I will have, again, looked like a god damned horse’s ass. Oh, well.
I anticipate a winner, however, and one that provides a significant consumer reason for upgrade.
And if it is a flop, so what.
December 6th, 2007 at 10:18 am
Tasman was used after MSN for OS X, too: Office: Mac uses it to this day, though some things on the MacBU blog imply Office: Mac 2008 will use WebKit. It has at least one major issue though: it is far from quick.
They were hyping up Expression’s standards support when it came out, so it may well be based on that.
I’d also make the assumption that the current quirks and standards modes will continue to use Trident IV/V respectively (both need to be frozen where they are, as any changes will break millions of sites — many rely on undocumented bugs, or assumptions that IE will be broken forever).
P.S.: I’m awake now, Molly
December 6th, 2007 at 11:02 am
So what is the indication that IE8 has a new engine? What do you know Molly? Hopefully it’s a engine which does not have hasLayout and puts all the bugs on my site to rest. It will become a novelty site.
December 6th, 2007 at 11:17 am
I think it’s mix of unrealistic expectations (or at least wishful thinking) and comparing it to upgrade rates on other browsers. Firefox and Opera, in particular, have had considerably higher upgrade rates within the same period of time, with the vast majority of their users running the most recent major release.
Of course, the type of person likely to go out and install a web browser is more likely to go out and upgrade that browser as well. Then there are IT departments with conservative upgrade policies, intranet apps that require IE6, etc.
Back when IE7 was announced, the consensus among web design sites I followed seemed to be that it would take years to get rid of IE6. Reality seems to be bearing this out.
December 6th, 2007 at 11:49 am
the new engine is webkit and Mr. Gates is going to look into it.
December 6th, 2007 at 12:01 pm
@Kelson:
On one hand, you’re totally right. It’s unrealistic to expect IE7 to replace IE6 in this amount of time we’ve given it. However, there are certainly things MS could be doing to improve the adoption rate (such as including IE7 with the latest service parks), but they’re not. I understand it will take time, but I also think it’s fair to expect Microsoft to push the issue as much as they can. It’s in everyone’s best interest (users, developers, Microsoft…).
December 6th, 2007 at 12:37 pm
@Jeff Croft:
Absolutely. Look at Firefox; in the past week I have gone from 2.0.0.9 to 2.0.0.11. All I’ve had to do is click “OK restart”. (Granted, these are point releases and not version releases, but MS could do *something*).
December 6th, 2007 at 2:40 pm
Don’t you bet that Dean got a nice email from Bill after that?
December 6th, 2007 at 4:35 pm
I’d simply love to answer your questions with greater details, but I do have an NDA and cannot ethically (or legally) cross that line.
I will say that what I’ve heard so far is to my liking.
December 6th, 2007 at 6:13 pm
In practical terms we are stuck developing for IE6 for a few more years.
I work in a corporate environment where the standard desktop box is Win2k/IE6. The current replacement cycle is now replacing them with XP/IE6, it will be at least another 12 to 18 months before everybody gets XP. The logic for IE6 is that it (and not IE7/FF etc) works with our internal systems like payroll, finance etc. These are not small systems developed inhouse, but big ticket items from the big guns like Oracle.
I am sure we are not the only corporate environment that is that way.
My concern about IE8 and a “new” rendering engine is that we will be developing for 4 browsers, IE6, IE7, IE8 and standards browsers. If we only have to develop for three browsers IE6, IE7 and standards browsers (including IE8) I will be happy.
If it is a new rendering engine how about using it for Outlook, Office and Windows Mobile as well.
What else would be nice: all of CSS2, as much of CSS3 as possible, though starting with the same ones as Webkit, FF and Opera support. Good developer tools, firebug is what you are aiming at. Incremental upgrades (adding more CSS3 support etc) every 12 months or so.
December 6th, 2007 at 8:15 pm
I have some significant concerns that Microsoft has abandoned the standards based web browser. There have been concerns over at the JavaScript standards group that Microsoft is foot-dragging on improvements to that language. There’s the lack of support for CSS3 in IE and there’s also no Canvas support. The IE rendering engine is really just too slow with large data sets - with over 1,000 rows in a table and things get real slow for hovering and clicking. And I haven’t mentioned all the quirks and just plain bugs.
The problem is this - Microsoft is really shooting themselves in the foot by not implementing to standards. They act like these technologies are just too hard for them to implement. There’s all this talk about compatibility and how hard it is to remain compatible and still innovate - so its easier to just not improve existing technology and instead create 100% new technology.. This seems like a smokescreen to me - best I can see IE doesn’t even comply with standards tests like ACID. So, what the heck are they moaning about. It’s like they have suddenly found religion or something. If computability is important then why not simply conform to the standards? Put it another way, if i woke up one day and IE acted just like Firefox, I would stand up and CHEER! By no means would I be upset. Microsoft is really barking up the wrong tree when they talk about compatibility. Instead they should talk standards compliance and help put together ACID type tests for each new standard, like the improvements to Javascript.
If they need to rewrite IE from scratch, then that is fine too. But the main thing is that they need to focus upon standards.
What really steams me is that Microsoft is working on proprietary NEW technology that addresses each of the areas that IE is deficient in - C# to address Javascript and Silverlight to address CSS3 and IE rendering issues.
The fact of the matter is this - most web developers have no interest in using proprietary technologies. Speaking for myself, I have been stabbed in the back more times that I can enumerate with proprietary technologies. So, I have no intention of adopting C# or Silverlight. This is especially the case given what they have done to developers with IE6. As a professional developer who makes my living by writing code that runs on IE, I feel betrayed by Microsoft. Why would I trust my livelihood to a proprietary technology that they could similarly abandon?
The thing about standards is this - they need to be conformed to. But they also need to be improved upon. Microsoft has shown little interest in either.
December 6th, 2007 at 8:18 pm
In addition to all the points previously made, regarding support for standards — in my company, we continue to await native SVG support in IE. (Not to mention SVG export from Office apps, *especially* Powerpoint!). It would be a huge step forward to have *standards-based* vector graphics (not VML) render natively in the browser, including the option to pan and zoom. It’s inefficient and aggravating to have to download a separate file to see a basic diagram or org chart. Flash doesn’t work for all. Here comes Silverlight — yet another proprietary diversion. I applaud your efforts Molly, and those of Chris Wilson, to focus Microsoft’s attention on support for standards in the browser. Compete elsewhere; not in the browser!
December 7th, 2007 at 12:26 am
Molly, you did a fine job of interviewing Bill Gates. You are forever my hero.
December 7th, 2007 at 2:57 am
What a great interview.
I’m always excited about a new version of one of the main browsers, but I’m concerned about the up take of IE7. I still encounter so many people using IE6, IT professionals recommending IE6 over IE7. How long realistically after the release of IE8 will we be able to start writing apps for IE8 rather than a IE6/7/8 compatibility compromise? And is there anything Microsoft can do to expedite the migration?
I’m not bashing Microsoft, I think they generally do a bang up job. I would just like to feel the benefits of all these great advances.
December 7th, 2007 at 3:46 am
It is already mentioned in the comments … I think the following will happen:
- No (or little) standards improvement
- Same quirks and bugs as in IE6/7 to support old intranet applications
- Focus on Silverlight
We’ll just have to wait and see… I hope it turns out the other way.
December 7th, 2007 at 6:56 am
Holy smokes, everybody is raving how INTERESTING the conversation between MH and BG was. Am I the only one unable to grasp what the chit-chat was about?
Pray, enlighten me. Preferably in a lay language.
December 7th, 2007 at 7:19 am
What exactly do you think you accomplished?
December 7th, 2007 at 7:33 am
I must not be in on the joke either because I totally didn’t learn anything from this blog post and the conversation between Molly and Bill. Molly, maybe you can write up another post explaining it?
December 7th, 2007 at 8:37 am
To everyone who didn’t get it. The telling and interesting part of Molly’s conversation with Bill concerns two things. One, there is a new engine in IE. Does it affect just quirks or standards mode or both? What engine did they pick? We don’t know. MS’s past commitment to backward compatibility makes me thing it affects only standards mode. But, plain as day is the information that there is a new engine in IE. Two, is that she asked Bill about the IE team’s openness and transparency to the development community, not the IE team’s commitment to improving standards.
Were commitment to standards a problem, and obviously Molly can’t tell us because of her NDA, I think we’d have seen a conversation about the IE team’s commitment to standards. Also interesting to me is how quiet various industry experts are on this topic, industry experts that talk to the IE team (Eric Meyer, et al). That there is a new engine and various industry experts aren’t chomping at the bit for news (because all of them have inside sources) makes me think they are going in the direction that we need them to go in, significantly improved standards support. I believe this doubly so since there is news of a new engine. A new engine means they couldn’t get Trident to evolve the way they needed it to evolve.
The only really screwed up thing that I can personally derive from this news is their deafening silence, which I’m sure will end soon.
Perhaps I’m too optimistic, but I can’t see all of these people being this quiet were something foul lurking on the horizon.
December 7th, 2007 at 10:26 am
Nick Cowie Says:
“I work in a corporate environment where the standard desktop box is Win2k/IE6.”
Me, too. A big corporation, like, huge. Just grousing.
“The current replacement cycle is …”
…far as I can tell, never. :sigh:
December 7th, 2007 at 12:17 pm
If they would be really smart, they would have two engines in IE8: one doing the quirks mode and be fully IE6 compatible and one that does all the standards the right way. Thank the Lord I’m not a software engineer
However, the poor adoption rate has got a lot to do with businesses. By far, most business have standardised their intranet and in-company applications in IE6. They are not going to upgrade and the IE6 clients represent a lot of the traffic on the WWW where the employees use that browser for internet purposes as well.
Currentle, I work for a company which cannot work out how to upgrade every workstation from XP SP1 to XP SP2, because they cannot get confirmation that some client software applications will run on SP2…
So IF finally business will upgrade from XP to Vista in 20something, they will all be on IE9 or IE10. In the mean time, we need to work around IE6 as best as we can, and hope that the people who adopted IE7 will adopt IE8 as well.
December 7th, 2007 at 1:11 pm
I’ve got some anecdotal evidence that bears that out. Early this week I noticed, for the first time, IE7 was ahead of IE6 in my website’s stats for December — or rather, for Saturday through Monday. Over the course of the week, the gap has steadily closed, and I expect that by the end of Friday, IE6 will again be slightly ahead.
With more IE6 hits on weekdays and more IE7 hits on weekends, that fits a home/business split.
December 7th, 2007 at 1:16 pm
I guess the thing that really made IE7 possible was security. IE6’s inital security (preconfigured) was a nightmare, espacially for companies. In Vista there was a strong struggle for more security and they really did an excellent job. This included IE7 for Vista. But security is very hard to sell. But i think the future will be Silverlight for MS - forget about HTML support. All major vendors realise after a while that the bad thing about the Internet is that your competitor is only one click away. Customers leave as fast as they come. So i would not wonder if many of those apps that today run in a browser would make it’s way back to “rich” clients. Certainly connecting to the Internet in the background to get and save data. But anyway the user should install something and have the feeling: this will not be available as a web site. Example: Windows Live mail. Back on the desktop.
Nice pic you guys have taken. Tie free zone. Unbelivable that a German manager of Bill ranks would ever talk to guys like you. And espacially without wearing a tie to symbolize it’s superior status. Bill really is a GEEK
December 7th, 2007 at 1:18 pm
At some point I’d love to see the IE team work work on developer tools for IE. Debugging javascript in IE is just a nightmare compared to Firefox/Firebug.
December 7th, 2007 at 1:19 pm
IE7 would have been (mostly) good enough for me but for Microsoft’s insistence on NOT releasing it as a Critical Update. I hope IE8, as a result, cuts into IE6 browser share at LEAST as much as it cuts into IE7’s…
December 7th, 2007 at 3:23 pm
Go Molly! Go! You are my girl!
December 7th, 2007 at 3:34 pm
Although this is promising, I’m not really sure “promising” is enough any more. Things related to IE’s development have been promising for… a couple of years now.
Either way, I’ve penned (well, typed) an open letter to Microsoft with respect to IE. Please, read it, and pass it on to the right people—even if it’s “look, this is what people are saying”.
http://nevali.net/2007/12/an-open-letter-to-microsoft/
December 7th, 2007 at 4:01 pm
Foo, Huh, and Jonathan: What Richard York said. If I could have asked more explicit questions, believe me, I would have. As it is, I walked a very fine line and that’s all I really can say about it. The rest speaks for itself.
December 7th, 2007 at 9:58 pm
Molly, and I glad that you asked the tough questions. Many people out there will soft glove an interview, to simply get access with a big hitter like Gates.
December 8th, 2007 at 1:39 am
Molly,
by sheer coincidence I learned that Bill Hill, long-time advocate for proper typography and reading technology, has left the ClearType team and has joined the IE team. So whatever IE8 is it will at least try to focus on making on-screen reading c.q. reading on the web a better experience. This could also mean zooming of web pages and such things.
December 8th, 2007 at 10:21 am
i heard IE8 is a repackaged opera with silverlight add-on.
December 9th, 2007 at 2:59 am
Molly, thank you very much for this article. Keep fighting!
December 9th, 2007 at 12:37 pm
Molly, please wake up and forget about Bill and his obsolete toys.
December 9th, 2007 at 5:37 pm
kerb said: “i heard IE8 is a repackaged opera with silverlight add-on.”
You’re possibly joking, but that would fit with the minute amount of info we know.
Web Browsers do not get developed from scratch in a year or even three. Look at the NS6->Firefox path and it was best part of a decade before the new browser could rival IE. So at first, reading this page, my heart sank at the thought of Microsoft starting development on a completely new render engine which would, with the best standards-friendly will in the world, surely introduce new browser quirks before it was fully stable.
But if they buy Opera they get one of the most advanced render engines, fully-made, and in one smart move achieve instantly something else IE has failed to do: give Microsoft a presence on mobile devices.
I really hope you’re right.
December 10th, 2007 at 1:57 pm
@Chris: Opera 7 moved from Elektra (which first shipped in 2000) to Presto (first shipped 2003). It is, IMO, unlikely that the two were developed at the same time, meaning Presto was under development for a maximum of three years. It is now three years since IE development restarted. Who’s to say they haven’t been working on a new engine the engine time?
December 10th, 2007 at 3:07 pm
@Geoffrey: Yes, the thought has occured to me too, that they might have been working on the IE8 engine ever since the IE team was reassembled. We can always hope!
December 11th, 2007 at 1:55 am
thanks. comment.
December 11th, 2007 at 10:33 am
@Geoffrey: I didn’t know that Opera had switched engines so swiftly, so thanks for the info. And of course Microsoft has a lot more manpower at its disposal, so it’s perfectly possible. I do find this idea quite disturbing, though, as they seem unable to turn any new project around quickly these days. But it would be quite a typical thing to do - rush out a half-fixed version of the broken browser while simultaneously developing its replacement. (Of course I only mean “rush” as in ~2 years since the project was re-started; compared to the time since IE6 it was more of a slither.)
December 12th, 2007 at 9:14 am
Exciting stuff. I wish they would choose Gecko over WebKit though. Why? Simply because we’d then have an enormous user base with Firefox as well for the same rendering engine! So designing would be *so* much easier. I doubt they will however because they probably see Firefox as a competitor.
At least Safari will be better catered for as IE8 compatible sites should (in theory) also work with it. That’s if IE8 uses WebKit.
The thought of a completely brand new engine brings plenty of worry. It’s bound to be far from complete (CSS2.1 etc). But who knows?
Whatever happens, still using Trident (IE7) is the least worthy choice of all. By choosing a new engine the IE team can jump on to the standards bandwagon with relative ease, catching up at last with everyone else. Rejoice! Rejoice! Or abandon all hope… for their browser…
P.S. I’m in awe at you Molly standing right next to Bill Gates. Bet that doesn’t happen every day!
December 12th, 2007 at 11:15 am
As an IE6 user I really hope they dont try to force me to use IE7 or IE8. In fact IE6 is the primary reason I havent switched to windows vista because I really dont like the UI of IE7. My web browser is the one application I use 90% of the time when at my computer, and I like it just the way it is. If they gave me an ability to run an IE6 skin on top of an IE7 or IE8 rendering engine, fine with me. But dont mess with the UI of my primary tool!
December 12th, 2007 at 11:58 am
Hi,
I’m interested in the idea that MS might seriously not be interested in implementing a standards compliant browser. If they can steal market share from Flash, with the superficially similar Silverlight and fracture the browser market by adding another render engine to the mix - surely it’ll drive users to the bespoke-client model that Flash & Silverlight use. Fine for users, Flash & silverlight are free to use… but how much do we have to pay to develop for them? £500 (about $1000) for Flash Pro, and… well I don’t even know where to begin to start building a SilverLight app.
So my point is that I guess when it comes to the crunch IE8 will be firstly be much later than anyone might guess, then with few significant enhancements in terms of CSS / JS - then (and here’s the killer) will actually be a trojan horse for delivering Silverlight to every WinPC. Let’s just start calling it…
sIlvErl8
Somebody please give me good reason why this might not happen…
December 12th, 2007 at 3:21 pm
LG–
In a way, you are right, I believe. Although, it will not be a browser that will not be standard’s compliant. By definition of standards, I mean standards that are public developed standards, i.e. working groups, W3C, et al.
What may become standards, in the next Net, may very well be private APIs and frameworks such as Silverlight and Flash [Adobe Air]. While Silverlight is still browser based and dependent upon the browser sandbox for security, I am sure that it is planned to become a standalone platform if necessary to meet competition.
Open data requirements and demand, as demonstrated by the Web 2.0 aberration, will be the driving force behind the breakout.
Browsers, with the release of IE8, will be public standards compliant portals to traditional content and more advanced RIA Internet content/applications.
Of the course, the above is opinion based upon instinct and trends as I see them with full acknowledgment that I am in a very small minority.
December 13th, 2007 at 5:20 am
It appears that IE8 will have a new or improved layout engine inside Trident according to Chris Wilson.
http://www.sitepoint.com/article/ie-standards-chris-wilson
A very enlightening read. I believe (and hope) that the IE team may have abandoned the property hasLayout with IE8.
December 13th, 2007 at 9:58 pm
To everyone who thinks IE would bundle Silverlight ….. Adobe would sue them for illegal monopoly bundling in a heartbeat. So it ain’t gonna happen.
@thacker — you’re right. Why do you think that Microsoft spent years developing WPF (which itself has been a dud, hence spinning off a slimmer WPF/e aka Silverlight)?
December 14th, 2007 at 7:28 am
@hoopskier: they might get away with ‘bundling’ Silverlight support if the browser was actually written as a .net app - Silverlight support would come for free. This would actually be quite nice, because it would make IE8 completely cross-platform (thanks to mono).
December 14th, 2007 at 8:33 am
Lets just hope IE8 will enhance even further what IE7 already fixed - like PNG support, better CSS compatibility etc. We’ll just have to wait and see. As for Silverlight - it’s a damn idiotic move not to allow you to use it with other browsers than IE…
December 14th, 2007 at 1:02 pm
I think that IE8 is sweet I mean the system is just great. I love my life
December 14th, 2007 at 1:05 pm
I think IE8 is so sweet because I know alot about IE8 and I just like this.
December 17th, 2007 at 1:42 pm
I think Chris Ovenden is a noob because it wont get away and IE8 wont cross platform.
December 17th, 2007 at 1:43 pm
I agree with Philey of that and mono didnt do anything just a big waste.
December 17th, 2007 at 1:44 pm
Yea Mono didn’t help anything or anyone it just hurt us all.
December 18th, 2007 at 1:22 pm
I really really wish I had your contacts Molly.
December 19th, 2007 at 1:30 pm
I remember when Microsoft was up against OS/2 or Netware. As soon as they heard about a feature in OS/2 that wasn’t in Windows, they were quick to say, “But the next version of Windows will have this too”. And even though it took until 2000 before Windows was usable their FUD kept them in business.
So if they are not up to FUD with premature disclosure this time, because “it sets expectations and that causes trouble” can it be that the lessons has been learned? I doubt it.
Mozilla have public bugs and updates their roadmap regularly, in addition to which we have numerous blogs by leading developers. What trouble has this caused? None whatsoever!
So the IE team “wants” to be transparent? How about letting them influence some more stupid corporate decisions:
- Let’s have them stop Silverlight! We do not need this lock-in proprietary technology. Or let the IE team order MS to make Silverlight work perfectly on *nix as well! With simultaneous releases for all platforms. Anything else is monopolistic! (And no, hettinmg it through backwards engineering through the Mono project does not count in MS favour.)
- Let’s have them stop these ES4 “breaks the web” lies that has been spreading - even from Chris W.
- Let’s have them put IE back as the rendering engine in Outlook. If anything, why not reuse Expression Web code for authoring? That should solve all problems.
The web is broken. Right now Microsoft is the main force that keeps it broken. 10 years ago it was Netscape. Today it is MS, and there needs to be many, many improvements from you before MS gains my trust.
December 21st, 2007 at 11:19 am
If Bill Gates, really doesn’t know what is going on with his “famed” flagship product for browsing the Internet, MSIE. Then the man simply should be removed from office and the PR director should run the company. I wonder if Bill also knows that the rest of the Linux & BSD computing world thinks he and his company is a joke, played at public expense. Shh don’t tell him- let him and the toolmakers at MS enjoy the holidays…
December 30th, 2007 at 4:35 pm
What’s with being “honored” to speak to BG?? Ok, I understand courtesy and being polite etc, but “honored”??? The man is not royalty, or divine! It’s fawning at best, and sycophantic at worst. “Pleased” would have sufficed, or “thrilled” if you absolutely had to be.
February 16th, 2008 at 4:54 am
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March 7th, 2008 at 2:19 pm
yeahh
March 30th, 2008 at 6:28 am
thanks
April 2nd, 2008 at 3:40 pm
useful article thanks man…
April 2nd, 2008 at 9:26 pm
thanks
April 2nd, 2008 at 9:26 pm
I NEED ANY ONE TO CALL SO THAT WE CAN TALK AND PRODUCE A SUPER COMPUTER THAT WILL HELP SEE THE NEXT FUTURE OK AM IDEGWE FROM NIGERIA WIZARD MM200X TECH 2000 W MY MOBILE NUMBER +234-8034107842 THANKS
April 2nd, 2008 at 11:08 pm
I really really wish I had your contacts Molly.
April 2nd, 2008 at 11:10 pm
I agree with Philey of that and mono didnt do anything just a big waste.
April 2nd, 2008 at 11:13 pm
I guess I’m less interested in when IE8 is going to come out than I am in when I’m practically going to be able to *use* some of the new stuff that’s supported, even in IE7.
April 7th, 2008 at 4:27 am
it is easy to find it, i think u just search on google or yahoo
April 8th, 2008 at 8:34 am
but, i think it is another thing which you have
April 8th, 2008 at 6:47 pm
i like it
April 8th, 2008 at 11:52 pm
interesting, thanks
April 9th, 2008 at 8:44 am
do you know everything about css?
April 9th, 2008 at 5:36 pm
how can i find everything about css?
April 10th, 2008 at 7:38 am
what do you want to learn about css? we can help easily
April 11th, 2008 at 12:35 am
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辦公室傢俬,
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April 11th, 2008 at 12:50 pm
i want learn too, i want start at the beginning of css
April 21st, 2008 at 4:31 pm
it is good t see u
April 21st, 2008 at 6:30 pm
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April 21st, 2008 at 6:31 pm
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April 21st, 2008 at 8:39 pm
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April 23rd, 2008 at 6:06 pm
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April 24th, 2008 at 8:32 am
hi, umit. how is going on
May 1st, 2008 at 5:47 am
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May 1st, 2008 at 5:47 am
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May 1st, 2008 at 5:48 am
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