Comments on: Standards Needs and Wants http://www.molly.com/2007/10/18/standards-needs-and-wants/ the personal and professional weblog of molly e. holzschlag Wed, 13 Jan 2010 02:11:35 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=3.0-alpha By: Christian Steinert http://www.molly.com/2007/10/18/standards-needs-and-wants/comment-page-2/#comment-813145 Christian Steinert Fri, 16 Nov 2007 16:10:08 +0000 http://www.molly.com/2007/10/18/standards-needs-and-wants/#comment-813145 I am a web developer (frontend and backend) - I want working, complete implementations of CSS1 and 2. - I want to be able to forget about conditional comments and hasLayout and I don't want to have to opt out of a new type of quirksmode in IE.Next - I want working SVG Tiny or more in all browsers - I want working zoom functions that work like either in Firefox or Opera; that doesn't produce horizontal scrollbars on em-based relative layouts and float bugs like IE's page zoom and that can be found and operated by normal, uneducated users - I want alternative stylesheet switching support in Browsers in a way that can be found and operated by normal users and which remembers style settings, preferably with a user interface like the one that the Stylesheet Chooser Plus extension for Firefox offers - I want browsers and especially assistive technology to support relationships in a reasonable way and I want an additional rel="sitemap" for sitemaps - I want IE.Next to be delivered with a current version of Uniscribe so that Asian Language Support becomes better and I want a Uniscribe Updater program from Microsoft for people who still use Win2000 - I want XHTML support in browsers including incremental rendering and I want that people understand that microformats are fundamentally broken since they have no mechanism of name spaces and that people use XHTML or something else instead - I want screen readers to support aural CSS - I want CSS-based content generation - I want that Mozilla doesn't run ahead like crazy and that IE doesn't wait behind with ECMAscript - I want web developers to be be careful when using @font-face as to not increase page load too much and browser developers that implement it to take care about @font-face related security issues And after these things are fine, more "fancy" stuff can be added to the web, as long as there are standards for it. Well, I guess you get the idea Keep up the good work Christian I am a web developer (frontend and backend)

- I want working, complete implementations of CSS1 and 2.
- I want to be able to forget about conditional comments and hasLayout and I don’t want to have to opt out of a new type of quirksmode in IE.Next
- I want working SVG Tiny or more in all browsers
- I want working zoom functions that work like either in Firefox or Opera; that doesn’t produce horizontal scrollbars on em-based relative layouts and float bugs like IE’s page zoom and that can be found and operated by normal, uneducated users
- I want alternative stylesheet switching support in Browsers in a way that can be found and operated by normal users and which remembers style settings, preferably with a user interface like the one that the Stylesheet Chooser Plus extension for Firefox offers
- I want browsers and especially assistive technology to support relationships in a reasonable way and I want an additional rel=”sitemap” for sitemaps
- I want IE.Next to be delivered with a current version of Uniscribe so that Asian Language Support becomes better and I want a Uniscribe Updater program from Microsoft for people who still use Win2000
- I want XHTML support in browsers including incremental rendering and I want that people understand that microformats are fundamentally broken since they have no mechanism of name spaces and that people use XHTML or something else instead
- I want screen readers to support aural CSS
- I want CSS-based content generation
- I want that Mozilla doesn’t run ahead like crazy and that IE doesn’t wait behind with ECMAscript
- I want web developers to be be careful when using @font-face as to not increase page load too much and browser developers that implement it to take care about @font-face related security issues

And after these things are fine, more “fancy” stuff can be added to the web, as long as there are standards for it.

Well, I guess you get the idea
Keep up the good work
Christian

]]> By: Michael Montgomery http://www.molly.com/2007/10/18/standards-needs-and-wants/comment-page-2/#comment-790087 Michael Montgomery Wed, 07 Nov 2007 18:44:52 +0000 http://www.molly.com/2007/10/18/standards-needs-and-wants/#comment-790087 So, is anyone counting how many want "browser consistency" first, and then improvements? So, is anyone counting how many want “browser consistency” first, and then improvements?

]]> By: francky http://www.molly.com/2007/10/18/standards-needs-and-wants/comment-page-1/#comment-766584 francky Sat, 27 Oct 2007 10:00:11 +0000 http://www.molly.com/2007/10/18/standards-needs-and-wants/#comment-766584 I want ... ... to change the the w3c REC status in a w3c CONDITION status, giving w3c the power to turn off the light for pages which are not compatible. ... browsers turning to black, and giving an alert "Fixed font-size discovered. Please contact the webmaster". ... browsers turning to black, and giving an alert "Tables for lay out discovered. Please contact the webmaster". ... browsers turning to black, and giving an alert "Page is not HTML-valid. Please contact the webmaster". ... browsers turning to black, and giving an alert "Page is not CSS-valid. Please contact the webmaster". ... browsers turning to black, and giving an alert "Page is not WCAG-AAA valid. Please contact the webmaster". ... browsers turning to black, and giving an alert "Page has no liquid design. Please contact the webmaster". ... to invite all webdesigners worldwide for a big party at the day we can celebrate that PIE (positioniseverything.net) has been superfluous. ... to have a blacklist of webdesigners, html-editors, CMS-developers, books and courses fooling their customers/students with not standards compliable and not accessible and/or not user friendly products (euh, pretty long list? ;-). So I agree: I want to rebuild the web too. Maybe we can define "Web3 - keep it cool", start from scratch, and throw all other things into the Wayback Machine? Should give some more bandwith and less energy consumption too! But who am I? Just an autodidact designer/developer/webmaster, 1 voice in the world population, and not enough money to buy MS and some others. Suppose others are in comparable circumstances, but together... (btw: while busy to get a real world website fitting my conditions, no time left to get my homepage 100%) I want …
… to change the the w3c REC status in a w3c CONDITION status, giving w3c the power to turn off the light for pages which are not compatible.
… browsers turning to black, and giving an alert “Fixed font-size discovered. Please contact the webmaster”.
… browsers turning to black, and giving an alert “Tables for lay out discovered. Please contact the webmaster”.
… browsers turning to black, and giving an alert “Page is not HTML-valid. Please contact the webmaster”.
… browsers turning to black, and giving an alert “Page is not CSS-valid. Please contact the webmaster”.
… browsers turning to black, and giving an alert “Page is not WCAG-AAA valid. Please contact the webmaster”.
… browsers turning to black, and giving an alert “Page has no liquid design. Please contact the webmaster”.
… to invite all webdesigners worldwide for a big party at the day we can celebrate that PIE (positioniseverything.net) has been superfluous.
… to have a blacklist of webdesigners, html-editors, CMS-developers, books and courses fooling their customers/students with not standards compliable and not accessible and/or not user friendly products (euh, pretty long list? ;-) .

So I agree: I want to rebuild the web too.
Maybe we can define “Web3 – keep it cool”, start from scratch, and throw all other things into the Wayback Machine? Should give some more bandwith and less energy consumption too!

But who am I?
Just an autodidact designer/developer/webmaster, 1 voice in the world population, and not enough money to buy MS and some others. Suppose others are in comparable circumstances, but together…
(btw: while busy to get a real world website fitting my conditions, no time left to get my homepage 100%)

]]> By: Lina http://www.molly.com/2007/10/18/standards-needs-and-wants/comment-page-1/#comment-765456 Lina Fri, 26 Oct 2007 22:50:07 +0000 http://www.molly.com/2007/10/18/standards-needs-and-wants/#comment-765456 The most positive effect of sticking to web-standarts, valid webdesign before all is the strict disjunction of layout and content. In an ideal case each tag in the webdesign has only a semantic, no layout meaning. By changing the CSS-file into another CSS the whole design of the website can be changed without touching the actual code. The most positive effect of sticking to web-standarts, valid webdesign before all is the strict disjunction of layout and content.
In an ideal case each tag in the webdesign has only a semantic, no layout meaning. By changing the CSS-file into another CSS the whole design of the website can be changed without touching the actual code.

]]> By: Anonymous person in corporate environment http://www.molly.com/2007/10/18/standards-needs-and-wants/comment-page-1/#comment-765085 Anonymous person in corporate environment Fri, 26 Oct 2007 18:16:48 +0000 http://www.molly.com/2007/10/18/standards-needs-and-wants/#comment-765085 I'd just like an opportunity to use modern Web standards. I'm afraid I'm stuck in table layout, font tag hell. I’d just like an opportunity to use modern Web standards. I’m afraid I’m stuck in table layout, font tag hell.

]]> By: Rollo http://www.molly.com/2007/10/18/standards-needs-and-wants/comment-page-1/#comment-761108 Rollo Wed, 24 Oct 2007 20:14:47 +0000 http://www.molly.com/2007/10/18/standards-needs-and-wants/#comment-761108 Rollo: Frontend developer - (X)HTML, CSS, Javascript working within JSP, JSF, Ruby on Rails, PHP. I can get around some in the backend, but much prefer the user experience side. I love tying it all together. It seems like there are a lot of things that require hackerific solutions in order to remain standards compliant and accessible Rollo: Frontend developer – (X)HTML, CSS, Javascript working within JSP, JSF, Ruby on Rails, PHP. I can get around some in the backend, but much prefer the user experience side. I love tying it all together.

It seems like there are a lot of things that require hackerific solutions in order to remain standards compliant and accessible

]]> By: CSS3 Standards Needs & Wants | Pixel Bliss - web & graphics design, digital arts & communication, lifehacks, getting things done, personal productivity http://www.molly.com/2007/10/18/standards-needs-and-wants/comment-page-1/#comment-760730 CSS3 Standards Needs & Wants | Pixel Bliss - web & graphics design, digital arts & communication, lifehacks, getting things done, personal productivity Wed, 24 Oct 2007 16:20:46 +0000 http://www.molly.com/2007/10/18/standards-needs-and-wants/#comment-760730 [...] Molly Holzschlag has started an interesting discussion on what designers and developers want to see with web standards, particularly as it pertains to CSS3. [...] [...] Molly Holzschlag has started an interesting discussion on what designers and developers want to see with web standards, particularly as it pertains to CSS3. [...]

]]> By: Alan Gresley http://www.molly.com/2007/10/18/standards-needs-and-wants/comment-page-1/#comment-760323 Alan Gresley Wed, 24 Oct 2007 11:58:07 +0000 http://www.molly.com/2007/10/18/standards-needs-and-wants/#comment-760323 To add to my previous message (the one above) 2 3/4) For all browsers to properly adhere to CSS1 standards. Some of these standards which even IE7 does not support. Please see this testcase. <a href="http://css-class.com/articles/explorer/floats/floatandcleartest1.htm" rel="nofollow">IE Float model and the reality</a> Such a simple children story book type layout can not be done in IE. BTW, I glad I don't where jeans to bed. To add to my previous message (the one above)

2 3/4) For all browsers to properly adhere to CSS1 standards. Some of these standards which even IE7 does not support. Please see this testcase.

IE Float model and the reality

Such a simple children story book type layout can not be done in IE.

BTW, I glad I don’t where jeans to bed.

]]> By: Alan Gresley http://www.molly.com/2007/10/18/standards-needs-and-wants/comment-page-1/#comment-758720 Alan Gresley Tue, 23 Oct 2007 16:42:23 +0000 http://www.molly.com/2007/10/18/standards-needs-and-wants/#comment-758720 I'm a web designer for fun (at this point in time) and serious CSS bug hunter. 1) The next version of Internet Explorer that doesn't have the propriety property hasLayout and one that doesn't have a rendering engine called trident. 2) All browsers to have tools to allow users to easily resize text or turn on or off JS easily. and browsers that teach users how to use them safely. 3) For all browsers to properly adhere to CSS2 standards, one being :focus for such simple site accessibility. 4) And CSS3 for the beautiful, stylish and symantic web of the future. So this is basically your list in reversed. I’m a web designer for fun (at this point in time) and serious CSS bug hunter.

1) The next version of Internet Explorer that doesn’t have the propriety property hasLayout and one that doesn’t have a rendering engine called trident.
2) All browsers to have tools to allow users to easily resize text or turn on or off JS easily. and browsers that teach users how to use them safely.
3) For all browsers to properly adhere to CSS2 standards, one being :focus for such simple site accessibility.
4) And CSS3 for the beautiful, stylish and symantic web of the future.

So this is basically your list in reversed.

]]> By: Plissee Dach Prefa http://www.molly.com/2007/10/18/standards-needs-and-wants/comment-page-1/#comment-757096 Plissee Dach Prefa Mon, 22 Oct 2007 22:20:50 +0000 http://www.molly.com/2007/10/18/standards-needs-and-wants/#comment-757096 Hmm, make that… Need: consistent rendering across desktop browsers for currently-supported CSS and all future CSS. Hmm, make that…

Need: consistent rendering across desktop browsers for currently-supported CSS and all future CSS.

]]> molly.com » Standards Needs and Wants

molly.com

Thursday 18 October 2007

Standards Needs and Wants

What do you need and want from Web Standards?

  1. I want generated content
  2. I want CSS3 features, especially design-oriented techniques such as better flow and layout, multiple background graphics, etc.
  3. I want to rebuild the Web

Rebuilding the Web would be a very sexy pipe dream from which we all woke up with cream in our respective jeans.

I’m hoping CSS3 is more sexy. I kinda think it offers us a lot.

Part of my role is to ask and to translate the collective concerns to organizations that need to hear (and most importantly, understand) your needs. I personally don’t know what is “correct” or “right” really. So, I’m asking. And I’ll keep asking, and hopefully our voices will have some impact. I believe they can, and ultimately will.

Would readers be so kind as to tell me what your role is (designer/developer/implementor/other) in your answer as that will help me understand the context of your responses?

Filed under:   WaSP, accessibility, ajax, browsers, creativity, hardware, ie7, innovation, javascript, microsoft, policies, professional, society, software, standards, w3c, web design and development
Posted by:   Molly | 22:16 | Comments (54)

54 Responses to “Standards Needs and Wants”

« Older Comments
  1. Michael Montgomery says:
    Wednesday 7 November 2007 at 11:44

    So, is anyone counting how many want “browser consistency” first, and then improvements?

  2. Christian Steinert says:
    Friday 16 November 2007 at 09:10

    I am a web developer (frontend and backend)

    - I want working, complete implementations of CSS1 and 2.
    - I want to be able to forget about conditional comments and hasLayout and I don’t want to have to opt out of a new type of quirksmode in IE.Next
    - I want working SVG Tiny or more in all browsers
    - I want working zoom functions that work like either in Firefox or Opera; that doesn’t produce horizontal scrollbars on em-based relative layouts and float bugs like IE’s page zoom and that can be found and operated by normal, uneducated users
    - I want alternative stylesheet switching support in Browsers in a way that can be found and operated by normal users and which remembers style settings, preferably with a user interface like the one that the Stylesheet Chooser Plus extension for Firefox offers
    - I want browsers and especially assistive technology to support relationships in a reasonable way and I want an additional rel=”sitemap” for sitemaps
    - I want IE.Next to be delivered with a current version of Uniscribe so that Asian Language Support becomes better and I want a Uniscribe Updater program from Microsoft for people who still use Win2000
    - I want XHTML support in browsers including incremental rendering and I want that people understand that microformats are fundamentally broken since they have no mechanism of name spaces and that people use XHTML or something else instead
    - I want screen readers to support aural CSS
    - I want CSS-based content generation
    - I want that Mozilla doesn’t run ahead like crazy and that IE doesn’t wait behind with ECMAscript
    - I want web developers to be be careful when using @font-face as to not increase page load too much and browser developers that implement it to take care about @font-face related security issues

    And after these things are fine, more “fancy” stuff can be added to the web, as long as there are standards for it.

    Well, I guess you get the idea
    Keep up the good work
    Christian

« Older Comments

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