molly.com
Thursday 14 December 2006
Who Questions Bill Gates’ Commitment to Web Standards?
On a rainy Wednesday in Redmond, Washington, 14 invited bloggers and industry leaders gathered at building 20 of the Microsoft campus for a full day of discussion regarding Microsoft’s outreach to its communities via the upcoming MIX07 conference. The very interesting and productive meeting was topped off with an hour spent with none other than Bill Gates, during which we had the fantastic opportunity to discuss issues of concern to the industry.
We were asked not to publish any audio, video, or photos (except for the group photo here, which you can also see on Flickr for more detail). I wish I could publish the audio, I think folks would enjoy it, but since I promised not to, I’ll make good on that and provide you the transcript of my discussion with Bill on the issue of Web standards here. I also have some video from earlier in the day that will be of interest to the standards community. The photo that’s on Flickr is tagged with all the attendees if you’d like more information on that. So, here’s my five minutes of Web standards banter with Bill Gates, which I hope you’ll find as intriguing, charmingly stubborn and witty as Mr. Gates himself.
Molly: On behalf of the constituents that I represent . . . standards-oriented developers and Web standards supporters around the world, I think they see a tremendous leap forward in IE7 and the work that has been done as well as the evangelism, the outreach. What would you say to the people that remain skeptical about Microsoft’s agenda in terms of committing to the implementation of standards for the browser and other development tools instead of this paranoia that seems to be out there that Microsoft wants to own the Web. What would you tell the skeptics out there regarding your commitment to the implementation of open Web Standards in your products?
Bill: I don’t know what it would mean to own the Web. It sounds attractive! [group laughter]. We’re a software company, and we write software tools that let people do productivity, content, write applications. You know, we have our track record. I don’t know what date you want to start in. 1993, when we started IE 1.0, or 1995 when we shipped Windows 95, or when we shipped IE 4.0? We have our track record.
Molly: Well that’s the irony. You [Microsoft] were always ahead of the curve until the IE6 issue occurred, and this . . . five year gap really caused some issues for the development world, and that’s continued.
Bill: No, no. Come on! There’s stuff in IE 4.0 that people are starting to take advantage of. I mean . . . script has been there!
Molly: Scripting, yes.
Bill: Well? Now people are finally using it.
Molly: Well, how about CSS support specifically? It comes down to CSS implementation . . .
Bill: Well, okay. That is up to Dean . . .
Molly: [amidst laughter] Oh, I see, passing the buck, Bill?
Bill: No, no, there’s two things. There’s what we expect we’re trying to do; and the state of implementation of the things we’re trying to do. We’ve done the Mea Culpa . . . that yes, we should have kept the browser innovation curve to be a more continuous curve. Believe me, we wish that we’d done that differently. Dean’s group is getting more resources, and so you’ll actually see us not only going back to the state of what we were innovating before but actually innovating at faster speeds than we were before. A lot of that has to do with implementing standards. It also has to do with doing user interface things that make our browser a cool browser and ultimately preferable for people to use.
Molly: But the question wasn’t answered, which is: What is the commitment?
Bill: Who has done more implementation of Web standards than Microsoft? I mean . . .
Molly: I’m not arguing you. I’m asking a question . . .
Bill: No, no but eventually a question has to be answerable. What did we do in 1995? What did we do in 1996? What did we do in 1997 . . . you can skip like three years and say we did nothing. We didn’t do anything proprietary, either! That’s criticizing not our intent, our strategy, that’s criticizing our execution and we fully accept that. But every year for 13, 14 years now we’ve not just followed and implemented standards, we’ve contributed. This WS stuff, . . . we contributed more Web standards than anyone! We have our smartest people who go and work on that stuff . . . we just did the OpenOffice . . . our office XML formats we contributed to them . . . we’ve got XML at the core of all our products. Back in 1996 it was us and a few small companies that proposed XML in the first place. At some point you just have to say hey, look at our track record and if somebody’s track record doesn’t prove something you, then I’ll probably never convince you of something. What is it that we’re not doing? You know if you name some obscure thing and say hey, Microsoft ought to do more on that I’ll probably just send Dean mail and say hey, she said that such and such a thing we should go and do and we’ll go and do it . . .
Molly: That’s absolutely what’s happened, and I’m acknowledging you for that and Microsoft for that. I’m just saying there are a lot of skeptics still out there.
Bill: How can they be skeptical? I guess if your job is to be skeptical, you’d hate to be out of a job!
Filed under: professional, standards, blogging, software, web design and development, WaSP, society, w3c, browsers, microsoft, ie7, innovation
Posted by: Molly | 8:09 pm |
December 14th, 2006 at 8:42 pm
Go Molly! I wish I could be there to prepare a list of standard issues to ask Bill Gates myself.
December 14th, 2006 at 9:04 pm
Wow, looks like Bill wasn’t going to budge and it seems like he wasn’t completely knowledgable about why they neglected to implement better CSS/standards support. He somewhat answered your question (by somewhat, I mean pretty loosely) and yet danced around the subject a bit.
As for your passing the buck comment, all I can say, to mirror Bess’s comment, “Go, Molly!”.
This conversation reminded me (visually) of two bulls smashing horns and still not getting answers.
December 14th, 2006 at 9:09 pm
[…] There’s lots of good coverage from other bloggers attending as well. See Steve Rubel, Molly Herzschlag, Ryan Stewart, Niall Kennedy and Liz Gannes. Todd Bishop also has a nice roundup. No Tags Sphere It […]
December 14th, 2006 at 9:29 pm
Oh, I see, passing the buck, Bill?
So many people wouldn’t be game to say that… that’s our Molly
Bill: We’ve done the Mea Culpa … that yes, we should have kept the browser innovation curve to be a more continuous curve. Believe me, we wish that we’d done that differently.
Compelling as it was from Chris Wilson, it’s good to hear that from the top. It would have been even more compelling if he hadn’t gone on to dodge questions and cite products/activities more than ten years in the past (that’s 100 web years!).
Molly: Scripting, yes. Bill: Well? Now people are finally using it.
Was there some background that? Because in my world, people have been using scripting for an awfully long time… and whatever happened in IE4 doesn’t have any relevance to the IE6->7 gap that you were actually asking about!
Bill: Who has done more implementation of Web standards than Microsoft?
In the current browser market Opera, Safari, Firefox and Konqueror are all easy examples. If you take Acid2 as an indicator (and an indicator only of course)… Acid2 is a wreck in IE7.
Mr Gates specifically calls attention to a track record that was great at times but absolutely abysmal for years. They’re also guilty of pushing proprietary extensions to standards rather than the standards themselves.
That means they have to show plenty of results now, since outsiders (ie. most of the world’s web developers) can only gauge MS’s intent according to actual results. That’s not to say that these results aren’t really encouraging - IE7 is worlds better than IE6. We’re just not ready to love MS
Things take time!
Bill: I mean… This WS stuff, … we contributed more Web standards than anyone we have our smartest people who go and work on that stuff … we just did the OpenOffice … our office XML formats we contributed to them …
Personally I don’t think of Office XML as a web standard.
Bill: How can they be skeptical?
Microsoft’s current product is still behind and they only kicked that back into life when competitors produced a superior product and started taking market share. The motivation was business, not karma. So of course we’re sceptical
However I would hope that the web standards community gives Microsoft the credit that they are due and doesn’t remain hostile without reason. I was guilty of that and now try to remember to specifically curse IE6, not Microsoft
So, I’m willing to be convinced…
December 14th, 2006 at 9:49 pm
I think it’s interesting he talks about standards as something you give to “them”. That misses one of main tennants of standards: inclusivity (i.e. “us”).
December 14th, 2006 at 10:03 pm
“You know if you name some obscure thing and say hey, Microsoft ought to do more on that … and we’ll go and do it”
CSS is obscure? Or is it that they will act on all sorts of other “obscure” areas but somehow CSS doesn’t qualify?
Like Molly I acknowledge the innovation and good things MS has done in the past and in other areas, but way to dodge answering a current, hugely relevant topic.
“We’re a software company, and we write software tools that let people do productivity, content, write applications.”
Fair call, but if you want to particpate in the web (heavily) via your browser software then keep up to speed with the relevent issues. Surely Bill is well aware of the impact that IE has on the web and the work of all the people who design/build for it.
December 14th, 2006 at 10:18 pm
I don’t know where all this hate and mistrust comes from.
Microsoft just wants to embrace and extend the web.
December 14th, 2006 at 11:14 pm
Ephram - standards aren’t about “inclusivity”, they’re about what’s in use regardless of who or where it came from. What makes a standard isn’t a committee, Microsoft, or Dave Winer; it’s a standard if it’s what the vast majority of people/machines are actually using.
December 14th, 2006 at 11:29 pm
[…] Update: Posts from other participants: Niall Kennedy on his question about Linux IP, Mike Arrington on his question about DRM, Steve Rubel with a summary of the Gates Q&A, Kelly Goto with a writeup of the day, Ryan Stewart with some remarks, Molly Holzschlag on her back-and-forth with Gates about Microsoft’s bad reputation on web standards, Chris Pirillo with his personal account. […]
December 14th, 2006 at 11:46 pm
[…] Who Questions Bill Gates’ Commitment to Web Standards? by Molly E. Holzschlag, Molly.com […]
December 14th, 2006 at 11:53 pm
I don’t know maybe it’s just me but those very diplomatic answers are scary, I mean what do he really don’t know what’s the meaning of owning the web is!
Any way IE7 is a great jump but we still need to be careful, making sure nobody ever own the whole web alone.
December 15th, 2006 at 12:26 am
Well, It’s good to read this. Glad you took a moment to share this with us Molly. The commitment of Microsoft to standerds is very much so reflected in these answered by mr Gates here.
December 15th, 2006 at 12:32 am
Come on, it’s not as bad as it could be. I personally think that Web Standards are not that much in the Scope of Bill, because it’s just a large firm with dozens of different divisions.
Probably someone should have briefed Mr. Gates in terms of Web Standards before this interview.
December 15th, 2006 at 12:41 am
He sounds so much like a politician! They always take the long way round to answer if they even reach an answer. Definately, Bill = Politician. Would have been so good to see a yes/no answer forced out
Nice job on the interrogation!
December 15th, 2006 at 1:01 am
MediaVidea has 5 questions for Mr. Gates.
http://mediavidea.blogspot.com/2006/12/5-questions-for-bill-gates.html
December 15th, 2006 at 2:08 am
Bloggers quiz Bill Gates
Fourteen A-list bloggers spent 60 minutes in the company. I found reports of the event from Niall Kennedy,…
December 15th, 2006 at 2:38 am
He says “No, no” a lot. Interesting.
As for owning the web, it was Steve Ballmer who came up with that one. I imagine he and Bill share a lot of general opinions about the web.
The fact remains that they are business first, and standards aren’t really something that make money. Firefox has forced them to adhere to them, despite being W3C members. (No ABBR element until IE7? Come on!)
December 15th, 2006 at 3:16 am
[…] Perhaps Mr. Cochrane missed the lovely Molly’s hard questions about IE and web standards, or perhaps he was simply focused on hard questions about podcasting without regard to the rest of the Web. Whatever the case, Geeky Granny has some suggestions to ease her favorite Geeky News Guy’s Consternation: […]
December 15th, 2006 at 5:02 am
I think Microsoft really are interested in web standards. The IE blog certainly gives this impression. Legend has it that the developers and the program managers run the show at Microsoft, so if this is the case, web standards support must be part of the company philosophy.
Crazy talk, huh?
Well, not really. It’s rather too well known that IE has it’s problems, so this being the case why can’t the guys working on it knock out a few simple updates? It can’t be that hard to stop alt text displaying as tooltips — think of all that bulging brain power in Redmond — so there must be a good reason for not doing it.
I think this is directly related to that other IE bugbear — only being able to run one version of IE on Windows. IE is a core OS component, embedded at the heart of Windows which is why you can’t run multiple versions. A large number of core OS components and third-party applications depend on IE and backwards compatibility is hugely important for Microsoft, so perhaps changing something as harmless as alt text may have an unforeseen knock-on effect elsewhere?
I could be totally wrong, of course, but it would be great if Microsoft could set the record straight on this once and for all.
December 15th, 2006 at 5:42 am
Sorry, this does not sound encouraging at all. “That WS stuff”, oh my…
December 15th, 2006 at 6:55 am
[…] There’s lots of good coverage from other bloggers attending as well. See Steve Rubel, Molly Herzschlag, Ryan Stewart, Niall Kennedy and Liz Gannes. Todd Bishop also has a nice roundup. […]
December 15th, 2006 at 7:41 am
Thanks for posting this Molly. It is interesting you had the chance to engage with him, and I am sure many other would love this chance, too. As others have stated - if they want to stay with a web browser and make it ‘cool’ (did he even look at IE7? The interface leave a lot to be desired) - then they need to keep up with the standards.
December 15th, 2006 at 8:34 am
[…] Ontem a Microsoft convidou um grupo de 14 blogueiros influentes para irem até o campus da Microsoft em Redmond, Washington para discutirem assuntos relacionados ao MIX07 com a presença de Bill Gates em pessoa. Dentre eles estavam os standards evangelists como Shaun Inman, Molly E. Holzschlag e Tantek Çelik. Para quem não sabe a conferência MIX é organizada pela Microsoft todos os anos para discutir e explorar tecnologias voltadas para a web em seus próprios produtos. Segundo a Molly dentre os assuntos discutidos com Gates, falaram até de padrões web. […]
December 15th, 2006 at 8:53 am
Now I see: they haven’t caused untold hours of lost productivity in web development for the last five years; it’s just that the slope of their browser innovation curve was not continuous enough. I feel much better now.
December 15th, 2006 at 9:06 am
[…] Otros bloggers que cubrieron el evento: Steve Rubel Molly Herzschlag Ryan Stewart Niall Kennedy Liz Gannes Todd Bishop […]
December 15th, 2006 at 9:38 am
Well said, Patrick.
I still question Bill Gates’ commitment to web standards.
Ben
December 15th, 2006 at 9:58 am
[…] keep that curve continuous! molly.com � Who Questions Bill Gates%u2019 Commitment to Web Standards? “we should have kept the browser innovation curve to be a more continuous curve” […]
December 15th, 2006 at 11:18 am
[…] You can follow any responses to this entry through the RSS 2.0 feed. You can leave a response, or trackback from your own site. Leave aReply […]
December 15th, 2006 at 12:59 pm
Good show, Molly. I’m impressed with the perceived shift in focus coming from Redmond. I’m still not sold on what level of commitment they’re actually making. It’s certainly getting better; I think they’ve got a ways to go, though.
December 15th, 2006 at 2:43 pm
[…] There’s lots of good coverage from other bloggers attending as well. See Steve Rubel, Molly Herzschlag, Ryan Stewart, Niall Kennedy and Liz Gannes. Todd Bishop also has a nice roundup. […]
December 15th, 2006 at 3:22 pm
Molly, at what point, exactly, did the word ‘bullshit’ flit through your brain?
December 15th, 2006 at 3:23 pm
[…] Ich möchte den Teilnehmern der Runde gar nicht unterstellen, dass das Microsoft-Gastgeschenk (”ein Zune und ein USB-Stick”) zur freundlichen Zurückhaltung beigetragen hat. Es wird wohl eher der Respekt vor dem Übermenschen BillG sein, der die sonst eingentlich ganz forsche Bloggerrunde so eingeschüchtert hat: “I want to thank Bill for his time and the entire evangelism team for inviting us. This was definitely a once in a lifetime event and the entire day got me thinking more broadly about technology”, schreibt etwa Steve Rubel in seinem Blog Micropersuasion. Steve Rubel, Molly Holzschlag, Ryan Stewart, Niall Kennedy and Liz Gannes. Todd Bishop […]
December 15th, 2006 at 4:21 pm
“We’ve contributed to web standards” (loose quote but it was said)
Yes, Bill. Your company has contributed by absolutely trashing Javascript, which was originally a Netscape product, and making it literally unusable to the public at large because different browsers of the same generation had COMPLETELY DIFFERENT javascript incarnations. I’m not just talking features which are useless bells and whistles akin to ‘blink’ and ‘marquee’ in HTML but CORE ELEMENTS OF THE LANGUAGE! It’s rediculous!
It’s amazing how poor Bill is at convincingly speaking in public. He should have his friends speak for him all the time. Really now… You’re not fooling anyone.
Regarding the huge gap in innovation between IE6 and IE7, they were still reeling from litigation from the previous century. I’m sure they were stratigizing carefully to not get their hands slapped this time. Perhaps part of that strategy was to stay put and see how things go once everyone has forgotten about them.
Anyway, Microsoft is ‘the’ bigwig of the industry and they have a ton of control over the development of consumer computing. Now that they’ve had their hands slapped a few times they’re starting to realize the social as well as financial benefits of playing well with others.
Cheers
December 15th, 2006 at 4:23 pm
This site should have a visual preview… I only noticed a spelling error after I had submitted.
December 15th, 2006 at 4:38 pm
[…] Molly vs Bill at MS. To Do: Add to Digg | Add to Del.icio.us | Print This Post | Email to a friend | Leave aComment […]
December 15th, 2006 at 5:55 pm
Found another article on the discussion day, and with the same photo. Except that the article is about C.R.A.P. aka DRM.
December 15th, 2006 at 5:57 pm
[…] Who Questions Bill Gates’ Commitment to Web Standards? Molly Holzchlag was among a number of high-profile bloggers invited to discuss the issues of the day with a number of Microsoft insiders, including Bill Gates himself. What does Gates really think about web standards? Read the transcript and judge for yourself. (tags: microsoft standards ie) […]
December 15th, 2006 at 11:22 pm
You know, Bill probably started out as a Jedi, but the seductive power of the Dark Side (money/fame/fortune) was just too great. But, there’s good in him, I’ve felt it. (IE7)
Never mind that it was stirred up by a idealistic Jedi (Mac/Firefox) with 1/4 his (market) strength and (commercial) power.
Underneath, Bill… is… JEDI. Perchance, the Standards community have gone a ways toward convincing him of this.
(So, suffering from Rutledge Syndrome. lol)
December 16th, 2006 at 1:33 am
lr thats a great analogy! lol!
December 16th, 2006 at 9:20 am
What I find unfortunate is that someone so powerful as Bill, still doesn’t get it. When he says –
“Who has done more implementation of Web standards than Microsoft?”
– all he has to do is to compare his browsers with others with respect to standards. Anyone who has written any css knows that IE browsers are the main reason for hacks and IE browsers have caused more problems than any other popular browsers of their time.
Bill, the more accurate, honest, and truthful statement should have been “Who has done more to hurt the implementation of Web standards than Microsoft?”
As to the previous Jedi post — There is no such thing as evil: just power in the hands of a fool. (J. K. Rawlings)
The opportunity for a worthwhile legacy lost — such as waste.
tedd
December 16th, 2006 at 10:18 am
[…] I’m sure you are familiar with the picture down there Bill and 14 invited bloggers and industry leaders in Redmond. One of them is Molly E. Holzschlag who posted on his site interview with Bill Gates with title Who Questions Bill Gates’ Commitment to Web Standards? First I must say I am very dissapointed with the shell Bill have around him. Answers are like he live in 90thies, I am not saying that Microsoft help settle some standards but now they are having huge problem with doing things like company of that scale should. […]
December 16th, 2006 at 1:58 pm
Well we can atleast see here that bill is not a web developer.. geez what an..
December 16th, 2006 at 7:06 pm
Great post, Molly.
I’m adding your blog to my bookmarks now !
Keep the good posts coming.
December 17th, 2006 at 4:12 am
Hi Molly,
say, do you still have the audio? I’d love to know if this was a mistake from you or from Bill;
the Office standards are called “MS Office Open XML” and there is a different OpenOffice format (actually called ODF). One that he’s probably very scared of. So the quote that he mistakes one for the other is pretty funny
Let me know, please!
December 17th, 2006 at 5:51 pm
You mean the best Bill can offer from Microsoft is referring to what they did in 1996?
December 18th, 2006 at 9:44 am
[…] Molly Holzschlag recently had the opportunity to ask Bill Gates himself about Microsoft’s support (read: lack of support) for Web Standards. It really sounds like he has no clue… bummer… […]
December 18th, 2006 at 8:03 pm
This was a baited question, especially given you’ve acknowledged that IE7 is a step in the right direction. What more can he say? What could possibly be offered as “proof” that he’s committed? Is it commitment that we need?
I think we all need to be a little less retrospect in our opinions, given that it’s *never* going to help the situation by delving into Microsoft’s track record - Gates implied so much. Also, we need to realise that Gates isn’t the front-man of web standards at Microsoft. A glance at the IE blog will make you realise that you’re asking the wrong questions to the wrong person. What does it matter if Gates doesn’t give a damn about standards, so long as he gives his employees the creative freedom to push for their use within Microsoft products.
As far as IE7 goes, it seems he’s doing just that.
December 19th, 2006 at 3:42 am
[…] Other bloggers involved were Steve Rubel, Molly Holzschlag, Ryan Stewart, Niall Kennedy and Liz Gannes. By Robin — December 19, 2006 — Filed under: Misc […]
December 19th, 2006 at 7:20 am
So it sounds as if Bill is still in denial after all these years. He seems to think that whatever his company does is unquestionably right, with a few caveats relating only to implementation details. He seems to believe that all those crowds of developers and end-users out there loudly complaining about the many deficiencies–some of them quite grave–in most of Microsoft’s products are just clueless morons who don’t understand how wonderful Microsoft’s innovations are.
And his answer to your question was laughable. Script?? What kind of an answer was that to your question? What could he possibly be talking about? ECMAScript? VBScript? The only “innovations” I’m aware of that Microsoft contributed to client-side scripting were either grave devolutions of Netscape’s JavaScript language (e.g. a carriage return can be used to mark the end of a statement), or grave security threats such as the nightmarish combination of VBScript with ActiveX. Even if these so-called “innovations” were good things, they still don’t have anything to do with your question.
Microsoft signed off on the HTML4 standard it helped to define in 1999. In fact, I believe it was the only company that had not one, but two representatives on the W3C committee. It subsequently released MSIE6, a browser that violated that standard in many important ways that made it difficult to write code that rendered correctly in both MSIE and standards-compliant browsers. Why? They had plenty of time to incorporate the standards before the release of MSIE6, and we know it couldn’t have been for lack of funding. The only three conclusions I can come up with are 1. They just don’t care about standards-compliance; 2. They are incompetant as software developers; 3. They actually want to force web developers to choose between supporting standards compliant browsers or the “browser” that 86% of the Web surfing public still inexplicably uses.
Perhaps Mr. Gates believes (as many other non-technologists do) that Microsoft’s financial success represents irrefutable validation of Microsoft’s status as an innovator and purveyor of quality software, regardless of any conclusions supported by the factual evidence.
Maybe the reason the rest of Microsoft seems to finally be “getting it” about the importance of quality, security, and standards-compliance is that Mr. Gates has been spending a lot of time OOO lately tending to his charitable foundation. I hope this trend continues. He never was much of a technologist, but in philanthropy he seems to have finally found something he is good at other than brow-beating software development teams to crank out countless gigabytes worth of broken “features” and security holes as quickly as possible.
December 19th, 2006 at 4:11 pm
Inspiring =O)
Bill is a politician, he told the answers he should have been telling, no doubt he was well prepared for the session by his stuff. I am still waiting for someone capable to “break the diplomatic defense”, if you know what i mean =O)
Judging by the photo, he was not feeling himself quite comfortable, as usual … but i would say that some of the question should have gotten through … haha =O)
No offense meant, Bill, if you are reading these comments. =O)
Btw: i believe, that microsoft has not started developing IE1, but bought the company later, and was not Bill Gates himself, who around 95 have said, that Internet will not be something more then a library for the students and universities … not that i ever needed more then 640K of course … and not that Steve Jobs has lost his touch in late 80s with what in the final became OsX … but 5 years for SQL Server and IE - microsoft guys, i hope you have really learned something from the past for the better of all of us.
I hope … but i don’t believe those who are typical “Embrace, extend and Extinguish” users … Ok, but in the end they have a lot of fantastic guys and girls in the company (i know some really talented people from Microsoft), why don’t they let them develop some really new fantastic product, instead of making them copying others … =O(
December 20th, 2006 at 4:53 am
[…] Some people remain stuck in the past, and refuse to accept the fact that times have changed. In a recent Q&A with Mr. Bill Gates himself, Molly Holzschlag asked him questions related to Microsoft’s commitment (or lack thereof) to web standards, and Gates continued to try and reiterate the fact that Microsoft helped implement the web all along and provided the basis for what people would eventually build off of. But the fact that Microsoft had the opportunity to put themselves ahead of the curve but simply let it pass and go ignored proved that they were not attempting to stay up to date, but would rather stay trapped in the past. […]
December 20th, 2006 at 9:18 pm
Jessica Says:
Like Molly I acknowledge the innovation and good things MS has done in the past and in other areas.
Yeah and it looks like Bill and the others are doing a Caesar and lying on their glasses and yes they are crumpled very crumpled with neglect.
December 21st, 2006 at 12:39 pm
Thinking everyone missed the boat on this. Bill Gates danced and Molly Holszshlag hasn’t provided an opinion or observation whether Microsoft will move and keep moving towards standards.
Ms. Holzschlag–
Share your objectivity, observations and opinions regarding this conference, please. Spill your guts.
Thank you.
December 21st, 2006 at 1:57 pm
Bill: Who has done more implementation of Web standards than Microsoft? I mean . . .
Mozilla.
December 22nd, 2006 at 9:03 am
To C. Thacker: Nobody “missed the boat”… In fact from their comments they pretty much all seem to realize that Bill was playing that game.
The issue is that the public shouldn’t be faced with the opinions of someone who doesn’t have his hands in project management anymore. Figureheads are useless to talk to in a technical industry.
Lets speak with the project manager for IE7 and ask him about his critical thinking process and decicion-making. That’s what I want to hear.
As well, why did MS go with BROKEN HTML4 for it’s new http://www.microsoft.com/ website? They could have easily made this site on time, on budget with a STRICT XHTML1.0 doctype.
http://ean.sytes.net/
December 22nd, 2006 at 9:58 am
Ean–
You will get no arguments from me … all hat and no cattle has never been that impressive.
Obviously, what my comments failed to clearly state was that the reference to “everyone” did not include contributers to this thread.
What interests me, is not Bill Gates posturing, but Molly Holzchlags hardcore assessment and opinions of the conference.
Thank you.
December 22nd, 2006 at 2:57 pm
[…] Who Questions Bill Gates’ Commitment to Web Standards? […]
December 23rd, 2006 at 10:07 pm
Folks- ENOUGH READY!
This meeting was described as “a full day of discussion regarding Microsoft’s outreach to its communities” and the only information we’re getting is a few minutes of dialog whose sole purpose is to portray Molly as a “Bill-killer” and portray Bill as out of touch. Surely there’s a lot more valuable information! Let’s get a report on that!
Incidentally, if we’re taking a trip “down memory lane” re: Microsoft’s commitment to Web standards over the years, was Molly talking standards when she worked at Microsoft until 1995?
December 24th, 2006 at 2:30 am
Angry Xmas!
http://literoligare.se/forums/post/1714.aspx
December 26th, 2006 at 4:20 am
Yes, lots of “No, no”’s from Mr. Gates. I haven’t tried IE 7 yet. too scared
& I love Firefox. but by the comments here, it looks safe, so will give it a shot.
December 31st, 2006 at 9:15 am
[…] Molly talks web standards with Bill Gates. Book it: del.icio.us, digg, Reddit, YahooMyWeb […]
January 2nd, 2007 at 8:47 am
[…] Weitere Blogeinträge aus der Runde: Molly Holzschlag, Ryan Stewart, Niall Kennedy, Liz Gannes und Todd Bishop. […]
January 7th, 2007 at 4:14 pm
this will probable won’tn get out but , there seem to be a pattern that is not reconisized as when can any one be allowed to do anything to the future the gates is in volved in . I talling abuot in the fact that not only was microsoft stealing all the work and leaving me crippiled as my fuuntions don’t work or there black out . How the hell am I work on others building when I can Keep them from stealing and runing my computer there is a patter that is either being egnored or that microsoft owns them . well there is one or two my wife you;ll never own us gate ,see your problem just got worce as think run unter your old way are just that old and stealing to make you look as if new progress is being made could be father from the truth well your dfay is coming for the inumain treat ment it going to com back at you 10 fold not my judgment for that you don’t want to hear for it would be dealing with you presonaly and all your dam wothless soders or slaves would be a closser . wait brown nosers that can’t get to the bath room with ot help or institions on there ownen. 10 years of crap of yours and guess what bill I’m still here and I read all that you did last week this week and every week that you try to erase and ruin me as making you in fist . well soon if not me your light is going to frick er and geuss what , the main thin is the light is going to come back on but not in the dim as you like if you get the point {dim}, but in the bright and see just how gulyyyyy of what you are to what you do to the fact that your rope is short than the dictaror of guess how. and if not by me for saying the true of the fact tath I tried sending over and over and you deleteiong as to make me not have the truth is what you do best ,well your getting closer to the ege for some are exstosing you more and more . So it is tue money can buy every one that to bad that mean time running out and you made your bed so sleep in it along with the rest of the low lives that have not though of there one , only what you put there and god hell themfor I put you all up again the wall and [/[.; and then let got sourt you out for there nothing here that can help I tried. And now it been out of my hands . Imjust giving the facts and fact they are, and crimminl are the worst of them and yet time will tellI vote ,thum down good luck on the rest I told you mchanging jiob is nothing to do with the person and you migh as well canged your cloues for that all you’v changed. Your the same cook and far worces, as you always been . I’ll probable payu hell for stating the truth , and analised upside and down thanks to you well here this,this is contolled anger if there is such a thing for what these people if you can call them that, have on a contionued basais done is underminding the very santaty of what is human and what is garbage, and the allowance of them to comtinue in leaving my ass in hell is un called for. so do as you want for the truth is the truth whuich these what ever no not even how to begin to tell and yet I ‘m and wife , are to be the punishment tyhat to contoled anger do nothing to say what burn in side as I follow the rules as I can’t say there are any more out there doing so. So why? do I well if you look there must be somthing here that is breaking the law , if not read my minde and that will shuiry break every law in the book and that st would cover the fact to where I take them , figure it out ether hang me or hang them but do somthing righ for a change and that alone is a long time seeing so do somthing. Michael A Wandersee
January 7th, 2007 at 7:48 pm
Cor blimey mate. Your palms musta been sweaty and u musta been in a rage. Bill never takes blame for his own failings, i s’pose u dunt become the richest man in the world by telling the truth and accepting blame.
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January 11th, 2007 at 4:50 pm
So Molly, if I`m getting you right: “On behalf of the constituents that you represent”, you are “just saying there are a lot of skeptics still out there” (apparently not you), to end up acknowledging Gates for the great work he’s done.
I hope you weren’t representing me here…
January 18th, 2007 at 9:48 pm
I question. Microsoft takes email design back 5 years
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January 18th, 2007 at 11:59 pm
Just added a comment on my blog about the lack of web standards support in microsofts web developer tools, which is even more important in my opinion, because it affects thousands of zombies and their way of coding html: Justaddwater: Micsosoft’s commitment to web standards
January 19th, 2007 at 12:00 am
[…] Molly interviewed Bill Gates on Microsoft’s commitment to web standards. Today, Roger added his comments in his article: Bill Gates on Web standards: Huh?. […]
January 19th, 2007 at 1:18 am
Hi Molly, thanks for great interview, I wish you’ve got few more minutes for few more questions, but what Bill says is pretty disappointing.
I think Microsoft is responsible for that crazy era of popups, viruses and porn going through IE6’s holes without any problems. For all that time we couldn’t really use transparent PNGs and validate our pages because of some weird CSS hacks.
I can see why they were Doing it though:
1. Billions of dollars in anti virus software industry.
2. Billions more development hours for the websites = more jobs.
3. Slowing down the whole industry to get some time to catch up.
Another point: they really did innovation in IE6 long time ago, but in the way opposite to W3C and Netscape, which I especially don’t like. It’s like using money, power and resources to make it their way (CSS filter property etc). So it’s evil.
That’s why I really afraid of them becoming heads of W3C there. Things will turn their way and everyone else would have to suffer or learn new standards.
January 19th, 2007 at 3:07 am
Hi, Molly
I am new on this thing. Please tell me: Is Molly.com a paid website or is this another free blog site? If it is not free, expensive?
If it is not free, do you get any business deals out of it?
Thank you so much, Paul
January 19th, 2007 at 4:26 am
[…] Who questions Bill Gates’ commitment to web standards? […]
January 19th, 2007 at 8:01 am
[…] Who Questions Bill Gates’ Commitment to Web Standards? […]
January 19th, 2007 at 8:55 am
Pequeña entrevista de Molly E. Holzschlag a Bill Gates
Molly aprovechó un encuentro en Redmon de blogers con responsables de Microsoft para realizarle una serie de preguntas sobre estándares Web y Microsoft
January 19th, 2007 at 4:25 pm
[…] Follow any comments here with the RSS feed for this post. Post a comment or leave a trackback: Trackback URL. « Blonde Redheadum páskana […]
January 20th, 2007 at 10:54 am
[…] In een kort interview met Bill Gates vroeg Molly Holzschlag naar de toeweiding van Microsoft voor het implementeren van webstandaarden in haar producten. […]
January 22nd, 2007 at 5:03 pm
Just my two cents, but I’m skeptical that Bill Gates’ opinions or ignorance of a particular part of the computer software field have much bearing on what Microsoft will do next. M$ has a lot of very sharp people who seem to have a great deal of independent decision making power in their own fields of research.
I would be more interested in hearing the same questions posed to a more appropriate member of the M$ leadership team.
January 23rd, 2007 at 8:41 pm
You should have asked him if he knows the difference between and .
January 24th, 2007 at 10:07 pm
[…] molly.com » Who Questions Bill Gates’ Commitment to Web Standards? […]
January 26th, 2007 at 10:20 am
[…] Two interesting items came up which I’d like to share with you. The first is a quote made by Bill Gates when he invited bloggers and industry leaders up to Redmond to discuss Microsoft’s outreach to its communities via the upcoming MIX07 conference. In the original post from Molly.com she is hounding Bill about various issues that relate to Web Standards and what Microsoft are doing about it. Bill’s response: Who has done more implementation of Web standards than Microsoft? […]
January 26th, 2007 at 1:13 pm
[…] Segunda referencia, New W3C HTML Working Group chaired by Microsoft, y es que Chris Wilson, como bien confirma el mismo en su artículo You, me and the W3C (aka Reinventing HTML), va a ser el responsable del grupo de trabajo de HTML. Y aquí empiezan los comentarios, porque mucha gente considera que en ese cargo no debería estar nadie relacionado directamente con alguna compañía que desarrolla navegadores (leed el artículo Daniel Glazman Future of the HTML WG). El motivo es obvio, independencia, y más en un grupo, que posiblemente sea el más importante del W3C. Nadie quiere que un representante de cualquier navegador (en este caso Internet Explorer), imponga su criterio al grupo de trabajo (ojo, no estoy diciendo que vaya a ocurrir, sino un extremo que nadie desea). Pero Roger Johansson, autor de 456 Berea Street también apunta otro punto de vista: ¿y si Chris Wilson acerca a Microsoft a los estándares? Y la verdad, sería bastante bueno, pero uno no tiene demasiada fe dado el conocimiento que tiene el presidente de esa compañía, Microsoft, sobre los estándares web: Bill Gates on Web standards: Huh? que nos conduce a un artículo de Molly E. Holzschlag (que por cierto, estuvo hace poco en Gijón), titulado Who Questions Bill Gates’ Commitment to Web Standards?. Ahora en serio, no se debe juzgar el trabajo de Chris Wilson, porque todavía no ha podido hacer demasiado. Desde aquí le deseo lo mejor, para él y para todos los implicados en el futuro de HTML. Pero retrocedamos al principio de este párrafo: el mismo, Chris Wilson, se ha encargado de responder a Daniel Glazman (sí, el mismo que ha escrito el artículo Future of the HTML WG que he mencionado antes) en su artículo Sigh. Hay que leerlo. Y terminamos con el último vínculo a 456 Berea Street: Apple’s Safari team comments on the new W3C HTML WG charter, que nos lleva directamente al artículo de Surfin’ Safari titulado… (música tétrica de mucho miedo y apocalíptica): HTML Standards Process Returning from the Grave. Donde denuncia que en la práctica, sólo valen las decisiones de los representantes de aquellos navegadores que tengan al menos el 10% de cuota… es decir Explorer y Firefox. ¿Qué pasa con Opera? ¿Y Safari? ¿Y cualquier particular u organismo que quiera participar? Por eso, desde Safari proponen cambios, como por ejemplo una colaboración del HTML Working Group con otros grupos externos, como WHATWG o la comunidad de desarrolladores. […]
January 31st, 2007 at 10:43 am
Well, by the sounds of things we might be able to expect a new Internet Explorer browser every couple of years. Wouldn’t that be nice. Or maybe even a SP1 for Vista that introduces a CSS2 compliant browser.
February 1st, 2007 at 10:12 am
[…] Uma coisa podemos esperar: bons resultados virão no futuro em relação aos padrões web. Para quem não se lembra, a Molly é líder do Web Standards Project e estava na lista de blogueiros convidados a visitar a Microsoft e ter uma reunião de portas fechadas com Gates em dezembro do ano passado. E ela teve a oportunidade de conversar sobre webstandards pessoalmente com o dono da Microsoft . Agora ela integra o time responsável por implementar padrões no browser mais popular do mundo. Mais detalhes por ela mesma no IEBlog […]
February 16th, 2007 at 5:48 pm
[…] Molly recently posted an interview that the Web Standards Project did with Bill Gates. She entitled it “Who Questions Bill Gates’ Commitment to Web Standards?” In the article, Bill Gates dismisses criticism of Microsoft’s commitment to standards by saying, “How can they be skeptical? I guess if your job is to be skeptical, you’d hate to be out of a job!” […]
March 6th, 2007 at 10:18 pm
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BillG grilled by bloggers… or not?
Bloggers met the man for dinner, not Borat, not AliG, nonono, the mighty BillG (not my abbreviation), paid trips all inclusive. Other bloggers think: man got away to easily. Well, big tech blogger Scobleizer defends the guys and states that it is eas…
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July 23rd, 2007 at 12:19 pm
[…] 除此之外还有其他许多的博客作家也写了相关的好报道．可以看 Steve Rubel, Molly Holzschlag, Ryan Stewart, Niall Kennedy and Liz Gannes. Todd Bishop 写的文章，他们都对这次会议做了很好的报道． […]
July 29th, 2007 at 6:50 am
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To be honest, all this stuff about Commitment to Web Standards? sounds confusing for me…
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Would like to add to the writings in the past that makes more sense in my mental and verbal
capabilities that it does in my writing or my typing that leaves mucg a huge misinjustice in what am trying to relate to. Sadly and unfortunately I cannot change these past writings that were badly mispelled, there is the stronge meaning that which my typing that poorly misspelled, still follows a trained regiment of ideas and concepts that has very much truth into the missdealings and beleifs and understandings of which is the hell we were put through. Now it is almost 13 years and still there is no justice of any kind of the participants which is unbelievable amount that scales hundreds of different kinds of scientific to educastional to quantum theroy to inovation, developing and to experiments which also books have also been wriiten. this is only the tip of the iceberg of many areas that I cannot even go into. What is certain that 13 years we have stood totally alone.This includes going to New York before the Supreme Court with no lawyer for reasons that many
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in The Who Who in Cambridge University and has lived through all of this hell we’ve through and has remained by my side of so much horror that can’t possibly be put into words because of the amount of frauding to threats to experiments of books written of lost inovations . It is unimaginable of the amounts in areas that it really only scratches the surface.I know there will be a lot of persons reading this because of the persons involved in certain that it is unimagineable that i believe that the percentages that I believe mathimatically of those that read this will know exactly what I am saying, yet mathimatically wise should not be mucha at all if any if this was not such a case that involves many areas and subjects, which involved us, but covered vast areas mentioned by huge amounts of people in the areas where they worked.Pretty soon a book of my writings are to follow or at least follow for I know a lot has been written and it still not the complete truth if any. I would like to show proof to the public in my wrinting proof to back this up.I being a regular ordinary person with great skills in developeing innovating and many other areas to which this is a portion of that my ethics are proven are of the highest standard for it’s the person I am, of the past and the future I promise to those that read this or any other writings, this is my truth and backed by proof that i would never ever change what the past has already proven that I am soundly ethical and a people person,that I will be d….. that 12 years of the past be changed for a minute. Thank you to those that read this and if you wish to email me ….. michaelawandersee@yahoo.com.
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[…] Some people remain stuck in the past, and refuse to accept the fact that times have changed. In a recent Q&A with Mr. Bill Gates himself, Molly Holzschlag asked him questions related to Microsoft’s commitment (or lack thereof) to web standards, and Gates continued to try and reiterate the fact that Microsoft helped implement the web all along and provided the basis for what people would eventually build off of. But the fact that Microsoft had the opportunity to put themselves ahead of the curve but simply let it pass and go ignored proved that they were not attempting to stay up to date, but would rather stay trapped in the past. […]
June 10th, 2008 at 2:27 am
[…] Some people remain stuck in the past, and refuse to accept the fact that times have changed. In a recent Q&A with Mr. Bill Gates himself, Molly Holzschlag asked him questions related to Microsoft’s commitment (or lack thereof) to web standards, and Gates continued to try and reiterate the fact that Microsoft helped implement the web all along and provided the basis for what people would eventually build off of. But the fact that Microsoft had the opportunity to put themselves ahead of the curve but simply let it pass and go ignored proved that they were not attempting to stay up to date, but would rather stay trapped in the past. […]
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[…] bloggers involved were Steve Rubel, Molly Holzschlag, Ryan Stewart, Niall Kennedy and Liz Gannes. By Robin December 19, 2006. Filed under: Comment, Ideas, News Add to: COMMENTS(0) […]
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