molly.com
Monday 14 August 2006
Angry, Not: Zeldman, Meyer, and Fair Concerns About the W3C
Eric Meyer has written a great post, Angry Indeed
and it’s one that’s going to be read and linked to.
A lot.
I agree with many of Eric’s perspectives on this issue and therein lies the great irony of the entire conversation as to the relevance and strength of the W3C.
I do want to clarify something right away: It’s not WaSP that believes the W3C is interested in changing course, but that I believe it. All BUZZ posts are the opinions of their opinionated authors, as it clearly states on every page of the WaSP web site.
Still, to keep a separation of church and state, as it were, I am posting this response here on my own web site.
Now, as for my rebuttal to Jeffrey Zeldman, I discussed this at length with industry leaders who are or have been involved with the W3C such as Tantek, Hixie and Kevin among others, including Eric.
One thing everyone agrees on, including me, is that the W3C is becoming very limited in terms of real-world contributions and other groups such as WHAT-WG and microformats.org are truly advancing the web, not the W3C.
I’m biased, admittedly and unabashedly. I came to the W3C far later in the game than many of my colleagues. Why that is, we can save for another discussion on a different day. But the fact I’ve only had a year and a half in, and my experience has been almost wholly positive, well naturally I’m going to have a hopeful perspective.
That I came in via Richard Ishida and the i18n pathway was especially fortunate, for that group is doing really good work in all ways, including outreach. I have done precious little in the HTML working group, which I joined because Steven Pemberton asked me. My hope was to do some outreach there too, but I’m very limited - just as most of us are - in my care for XHTML 2.0.
All I really, really want from XHTML 2.0 is href to be available for any element. That gets me hot. Other than that, what am I supposed to outreach? That I think Web Applications 1.0 (also referred to as HTML 5) makes more sense? Because in many ways, I do.
Eric points to the seeming dichotomy of my arguments, and he’s absolutely correct. He knows me very well and if anyone can point out flaws in me, I’m going to have to let Mr. Meyer have his way.
But, I’m torn! I’m at the W3C now. And I see some good things. And I especially see some amazing people. As a person who is a social connector, problem solver and ultimately, an optimist, my hopes prevail.
Does it make a difference that this conversation is being followed carefully by the W3C? That the W3C wants desperately to solve its problems? That maybe instead of us abandoning the great mindshare we have there that there’s an opportunity for restructuring, refocus, and hey, let’s face it, better communications for all?
Filed under: professional, policies, standards, web design and development, WaSP, w3c
Posted by: Molly | 7:39 am |
August 14th, 2006 at 8:17 am
Changes within a consortium, especially one as large as the W3C, will always be slow. I think that the re-formation of the HTML working group to rev XHTML 1 and “maintain” the previous specs is a strong move in the right direction, as are the Web API and Web Application Format groups. The fact that Web API is working to standardize XMLHttpRequest and do it fairly quickly gives me hope, as does the idea of incubator activities. I think a lot of the troubles the W3C has are from it actually moving too quickly into big lumbering working groups built around things that the “real” web doesn’t want or need (I won’t name names, but a couple of the X specs will never be implemented), and ignored real world use and best practice. That’s changing, and that’s a good thing.
August 14th, 2006 at 8:44 am
Hi Molly… I was wondering what the benefits would be of having href available for all elements? Or can anyone else see the advantages? Maybe I’m being a little slow here!
August 14th, 2006 at 9:15 am
I’ve been following the w3c for close to a decade now. Most of the relevant standards (CSS2, html 4) today have hardly changed in those years. Instead a lot of standards of rather dubious nature have been worked on. Also a number of revisions of the existing standards have been chewed on endlessly without any results so far. I recall reading with some enthousiasm about CSS3 features five (5!) years ago. I moved to make my website xhtml 1.0 compliant in the previous millenium. The 2.0 upgrade to this standard exist only on paper and has little or no real world relevance.
To this very day usage of xhtml remains mostly limited to well formed html 4.01 sites served up with the wrong mime-type. CSS 3 features have been added to some browsers but mostly this concerns toy stuff like rounded corners that is not supported in internet explorer anyway!
For most of this time the W3C has been working in a strange mode of trying to forward define standards ahead of their reference implementations. This leads to an obvious problem: the standards are riddled with ambigueities, problems and limitations. Also since the process is so slow time to market of the features is terrible.
There are of course some succesful specifications but even those are evolving at a snailpace. For example the late nineties finalized XML 1.0 is popular but the 1.1 revision of that spec is still a pretty rare sight (despite being quite old now). Similarly SVG adoption remains low and mostly limited to offline stuff like rendering icons and exchanging graphics between tools that don’t support more convenient formats. Whatever vision was behind that standard has completely failed to materialize.
A structural problem in the W3C is that it tries to do design by committee. On top of that the committee has members who are mainly interested in their proprietary agendas rather than putting together a specification and getting a compliant product to market.
Microformats are an emerging pragmatic, straigtforward improvement that is developed by individuals in conjunction with working prototypes. The amount of progress made that way in a very short period of time is much better than all of the semantic web stuff dreamed up at the W3C in a decade. Similarly the atom 1.0 specification moved from concept to IETF standardization in a time frame the CSS 3 specification developers did what exactly? Procrastinate? It’s not like CSS 2.x is without issues to address! In my view the w3c no longer has the authority to define standards. Recommended by the W3C, so what? I’ve seen 0% progress in standards that matter to me for close to a decade now.
August 14th, 2006 at 10:42 am
Though I have been developing for the web for some years and followed the W3C workings intermittently, too me I see something kinda wrong.
To me it seems there is a lot of over intellectuallizing (ok maybe not a word). It really is rarely about the specs rather how the specs are derived. Would GE an organization vastly more complex than W3C ever was or will be would generate the profits if they worked like the W3C or for that matter many standards groups? I doubt it.
I don’t know, maybe W3C and other groups need to step back and really evaluate things. Bring a anti-BS person in and knock the pegs down. Democracy is for governments. Treat this like a business, albeit a good one.
August 14th, 2006 at 10:57 am
Sounds like you’re having a mad / hectic / troubled couple of days Molly, what with “failing the web” and W3C concerns. Tying both threads into one it’s important to remember if something is worth doing more often than not it’s not easy to do.
From outside, but working with the technology for more years than I care to mention now it seems very difficult to think that the steps that have been made can be seen as a failure at all. The differences between the first patchy web experiences on mozilla (no Netscape then), whilst a mind-blowing leap from the FidoNet BBS scene aren’t a patch on what web professionals produce on a daily basis now. The trouble is when organisations drag their heals, become embroiled in bureaucracy, splinter or take their eye away from their interest group it becomes a failure by degrees. The trouble is that with each degree of failure there also builds up resentment.
For grassroots designers and developers who have a difficult time enough trying to follow standards and / or deal with clients that really don’t and perhaps shouldn’t care these things become a nightmare. For those of us that are putting together more strategic solutions it also becomes a nightmare trying to figure out which horse to back; I really wish we’d seen WHAT-WG forms a while back it would have certainly given us food for thought when putting together sxForms. Also with semantic html; will is be the RDF/OWL approach, or Microformats integrated with GRDDL, or perhaps go with a xml-bation (fantastic word from Tantek there even if I disagree completely with the sentiment) hybrid.
For the good of users, grassroots, strategic and gurus I hope that your optimism is correct.
August 14th, 2006 at 11:27 am
I still believe
Our W3C, which art on the net:
Hallowed be thy markup.
Thy workingdrafts come.
Thy Specs be done in Mozilla as they are in Opera.
Give us this day our daily XHTLM and forgive us our hacks and workarounds, as we forgive all tablebased designers.
And lead us not to invalid code but deliver us from IE5.
I believe that the “great steps forward” we’ve seen in the last few years (css, semantic markup etc) are catching on to a big group of people and that some slowing down now might be a good thing. I’m as excited as you are, molly, about the innovation tantek and everyone at microformats (and others), but what we need the most right now is some stability and time to convince our clients and the WHOLE community before we move along. I’m all for innovation usually but wasn’t this (part of) the problem at w3c? They pushed innovation so much and came up with such groundbreaking stuff that over half the community didn’t follow it because a) it came too fast and b) we thought it wasn’t viable/complete/bugfree.
Just a thought, as always.
August 14th, 2006 at 11:47 am
“Does it make a difference that… the W3C wants desperately to solve its problems?”
It would make a difference if there were any credible evidence it were true. If they want us to believe they are interested in changing themselves, they can do what the rest of us do and blog about it. Maybe then we’ll give them the time of day.
August 14th, 2006 at 4:02 pm
Y’know there’s always a danger of further fragmentation - say if we all said ciao to the W3C and all… what gives the others any real authority? I might be making a jackass of myself on this one but if concensus isn’t working for the W3C and we’re all at each other’s throats on this stuff then what goes without them - uncivil war? Make our own pseudo standards?
A standard, after all, only works because we all ‘agree’ to make it work.
Yes IMO I think the W3C is floundering and I held it in far more esteem 3 years ago than today. But that goes for many governments lol…
Why can’t we better things on many fronts at the same time? Why must people demand exclusivity? The W3C are only humans after all and they have their own internal politics and weaknesses irrelevant of which of us steps up to the plate - try pleasing everyone.
OH I’m in a negative mood today lol… must’ve been the nasty woman on the bus yesterday. All I’m saying is people should cut some slack - the Web will never be perfect. Our lives aren’t perfect. I feel the expectations of many are very high, sometimes too high IMO.
That being said the PR of W3C has been seriously eroded by their WCAG 2 IMO…
August 14th, 2006 at 7:53 pm
I think there is real danger here of the W3C making itself irrelevant.
Consider that the web needs the W3C but it can function without it. Not the web we want, or even a web that works — but exist it will.
Perceptions are changing out here in the trenches that (justified or not) the W3C is starting to lose credibility as a flag bearer for the WWW.
What to do?
Maybe a better sense of community — and I don’t mean a “you can join our forums” or “send your submissions” kind of community. Maybe if the W3C was seen to be reaching out to the web community rather than letting it come the them. Close yourself off, become opaque, and people will stop coming.
How many web beginners have you sent to the W3C website to learn their craft? None? Too convoluted, too technical? W3C members themselves joke about the stuffy academia that prevails. Technical papers are important for emerging technologies but where is the soft-start for the newbies that could promote trust and future involvement?
As Joe said: blog. Convince me that I need you. Microsoft has learnt. Didn’t hurt them none.
Molly: this is the stuff that you are good at. They need people who can engage and promote and connect to the web at large. Do they actually want to?
If the W3C’s attitude is: “that’s not our agenda” they have already lost.
August 15th, 2006 at 12:01 am
I’ve thought for a while that the W3C was in a fair bit of trouble. This is an impression gained from watching and waiting for new specs which just don’t seem to come; and also from talking to those people I do know (or have met) who are involved with the W3C.
They do a really tough job. For a long time they did it very well. Right now…. not so well.
We have an increasing number of breakaway groups; plus we have more cooperation between browser makers. Imagine for a second that next time the browser makers meet, they don’t talk about RSS icons - instead they decide to endorse and build to things like web applications 1.0 and microformats.
The high school history student in me keeps thinking “the League of Nations fell” - all that took was a major player refusing to join. I also think: “we have the UN now”… so if one thing falls, another can take its place.
Of course the W3C could shake things up and enter a new era; but TBL doesn’t seem concerned and that’s a bit of a litmus test I think.
Personally I would rather see the W3C sort things out - it’s been a battle to get people to follow the W3C (however far they actually do), it’d be nice not to have to fight all over again to get people to follow something else
August 15th, 2006 at 7:44 am
[…]
Found at: Molly.com […]
August 15th, 2006 at 10:20 am
[…] Molly (réplica do texto do Meyer): Angry, Not: Zeldman, Meyer, and Fair Concerns About the W3C […]
August 15th, 2006 at 10:59 am
I am optimistic about w3c effort. W3C has set some standard for html/xhtml/css,
and has limited power to force those standard.
who is in charge of implementing standard into the browsers? who is in charge of coding based on those standards?
The issue is, not implementing standards (by companies and developers). Why not those who are concerned about pace of the action use their influence to spread useage of standard in companies (specially browser makers) and among developers.
For this matter, microformats -an example- will be another standard which will have the same impact (% wise) as css 3.
August 16th, 2006 at 10:24 am
You know, it’s like with anything else. A small group of enthusiasts band together to form a movement which gains momentum and grows, grows, and keeps growing until it inevitably grows past its ability to remain effective. It’s a wonderful little cycle and we’re seeing it happen with the W3C succumbing to the weight of its bloat while the WHAT-WG and microformats.org are taking off.
August 16th, 2006 at 2:34 pm
[…] Angry, Not: Zeldman, Meyer, and Fair Concerns About the W3C […]
August 16th, 2006 at 4:51 pm
I, too, had the feeling recently that the W3C has probably peaked as an effective leader in the ogoing change process as far as standards on a world-wide level are concerned. Ara (above) makes a valid point about the cycle of life organizations of this type go through. The good part of this is that there are other more effective organizations moving in to fill the gap. Perhaps the demise of the W3C is based in the fact that turnover around the ‘head table’ was lower than it should have been. It is good to bring new faces around the table on a regular basis to keep a healthy mix of fresh ideas and enthusiasm flowing at a steady volume.
August 17th, 2006 at 12:44 pm
Scanned the article, skipped the comments, but (love that):
> WHAT-WG and microformats.org are truly advancing the web
Er. Are there any more or less good working WHAT-WG spec implementations yet? And Microformats, ain’t that just another “buzzword” (okay, not that bad like “Web 2.0″ or “AJAX”), “spamming” your source code with pseudo-semantic code, with even less useful implementations?
Couldn’t avoid to bring that up this way.
August 22nd, 2006 at 9:45 am
[…] ¿Es esto real? Me baso en impresiones, pero creo que Zeldman y Meyer tienen razón. A pesar de ello, Molly Holzschlag, responsable actual del WaSP ha decidido iniciar un nuevo acercamiento y da respuesta a Zeldman, resaltando la voluntad de acercamiento a los problemas del día a día de la web. (Algo que en el W3C conocen y por eso invitan a sus plenarios a profesionales reconocidos como ha sido el panel del oficioso Microformatos, el más reconocido por todos los asistentes, el 90% miembros del W3C). […]
August 23rd, 2006 at 12:22 pm
There is one fundamental thing that must not be forgotten. Many web developers still do not use standards. They are not in 2002 but in 1998. Just because some have been using standards since 2002 and are daily fighting their limitations and like to see progress does not mean that the first battle is won - yet!
Undermining the authority of the W3C is a bad thing until some other standards body is ready to take over.
August 28th, 2006 at 3:40 pm
[…] Molly Holzschlag - Angry, Not: Zeldman, Meyer, and Fair Concerns About the W3C […]
August 31st, 2006 at 4:44 am
(…)restructuring, refocus, and hey, let’s face it, better communications for all?(…) I think this could be the best solution.
Start differents groups with same goal and differents interests, make me remember the browser war. And that’s not good.
I think the power of W3 is the groups of experts minds, the change of ideas and if we lose that, then the only thing that will rest was members with economic interests.
Like Molly said restructuring and refocus.
ANd make it simple for the people.
August 31st, 2006 at 5:51 am
[…] Meanwhile some things seem to go right at the W3C: the I18N activity led by Richard Ishida, or the quick embracing of Microformats, Web Forms, Widgets and Gadgets, and the XHTML 1.1 Role Attribute Module. The latter has to be seen in context with IBM’s contribution to the Mozilla source code for DHTML accessibility, but is subject to Joe Clark’s flaming because of a tabindex of −1. […]
August 31st, 2006 at 4:24 pm
[…] Molly Holzschlag - Angry, Not: Zeldman, Meyer, and Fair Concerns About the W3C […]
September 1st, 2006 at 1:07 pm
[…] Arnau Siches, citando las palabras de Molly E. Holzschlag en Angry, Not: Zeldman, Meyer, and Fair Concerns About the W3C. […]
October 1st, 2006 at 9:16 am
[…] Categoría: general, accesibilidad, desarrollo, diseño, tendencias El W3C es un consorcio internacional formado por instituciones y empresas con la misión de: Guiar la Web hacia su máximo potencial a través del desarrollo de protocolos y pautas que aseguren el crecimiento futuro de la Web.dedicada a llevar la web hacia su máximo potencial. El W3C está formado principalmente por instituciones y fabricantes que pagan costosas cuotas por participar en la definición de estándares (o por usar el logotipo W3C, seamos sinceros). Estándares que al final se implementan en productos y servicios de los propios fabricantes. Si no pagas, no participas. Últimamente, el W3C parece atascado en su burocracia y debates internos. De hecho, en la pasada edición de Fundamentos Web, las charlas de Steve Pemberton sobre XHTML 2.0 o xForms me parecieron lejanas, muy lejanas, por su complejidad y porque apenas es soportado por navegadores, como a muchos colegas. Si a esto le añadimos, que su conexión con la comunidad de diseño web es a través de herramientas y validadores y éstos son defectuosos, no ayudan (y aún sabiéndolo desde hace años) aquí hay un punto de ruptura. De desconexión. El W3C corre el peligro de que la comunidad de diseño web le dé la espalda definitivamente. Ya ha comenzado a articular sus propios cuerpos de desarrollo de conocimiento en los que la participación es libre y gratuita: lease WaSP, preocupado por la viabilidad y sostenibilidad de un código front que no sólo sea correcto técnicamente, sino estéticamente, explorando y descubriendo nuevas posibilidades o del movimiento microformats liderado por Tantek Çelik, ex W3C (grupo de CSS). Pero últimamente, no sólo no se aprecian avances en su trabajo sino que en casos como las nuevas pautas de accesibilidad WCAG 2.0, se observa un claro retroceso, al menos desde la perspectiva de aquellos que viven de las tecnologías web: pautas complejas, politizadas, extensas y sobre todo poco prácticas. Así ocurrió en @media 2006, en Londres este pasado junio, la gran convención internacional del diseño web, donde las personas que más conocen la web desde un punto de vista “real” y de aquello que se ve, a la pregunta acerca de si las grandes tendencias para el 2007 podían ser el XHTML 2.0, CSS 3.0, SVG 2.0, xForms, y resto de estándares W3C, no hicieron sino reirse. Lejos, muy lejos. El panel de accesibilidad, con expertos reconocidos, fue más de lo mismo: una crítica a la lenta actividad del W3C. Nadie tuvo ni tiempo ni ganas de leerse unas pautas que impresas ocupan más de 300 folios. Y así lo ha hecho Joe Clark en un corrosivo artículo en Alistapart. The Web Content Accessibility Guidelines Working Group is the worst committee, group, company, or organization I’ve ever worked with. Several of my friends and I were variously ignored; threatened with ejection from the group or actually ejected; and actively harassed. The process is stacked in favour of multinationals with expense accounts who can afford to talk on the phone for two hours a week and jet to world capitals for meetings. – Joe Clark Entre los expertos reconocidos del diseño web, personas que han influido decisivamente en la actual web, se encuentran desde la postura supercrítica de los fundadores del Webstandards Group Jeffrey Zeldman o Eric Meyer que denuncian la lentitud y distancia del W3C respecto los problemas reales de la comunidad web. Beholden to its corporate paymasters who alone can afford membership, the W3C seems increasingly detached from ordinary designers and developers. Truth be told, we and our practical concerns never drove the organization. But after ordinary designers and developers spent nearly a decade selling web standards to browser makers and developing best practices around accessibility and semantics, one hoped the W3C might realize that there was value in occasionally consulting its user base. – Jeffrey Zeldman To be fair, the W3C solicits community feedback before finalizing its recommendations. But asking people to comment on something that is nearly finished is not the same as finding out what they need and soliciting their collaboration from the start. – Jeffrey Zeldman Let’s be frank: a whole lot of people who believe passionately in the web’s potential and want to see it advance fought for years to make that happen through the W3C, and finally decided they’d had enough. One by one, I saw some of the best minds of my generation soured by the W3C; one by one, the embittered generals marched forward, determined to make some sort of progress. – Eric Meyer ¿Es esto real? Me baso en impresiones, pero creo que Zeldman y Meyer tienen razón. A pesar de ello, Molly Holzschlag, responsable actual del WaSP ha decidido iniciar un nuevo acercamiento y da respuesta a Zeldman, resaltando la voluntad de acercamiento a los problemas del día a día de la web. (Algo que en el W3C conocen y por eso invitan a sus plenarios a profesionales reconocidos como ha sido el panel del oficioso Microformatos, el más reconocido por todos los asistentes, el 90% miembros del W3C). A pesar de todo, viendo la actividad de la oficina española del W3C, el W3C quiere acercarse, y mi impresión tras asistir al Plenario Técnico, es que el W3C es consciente de su peligrosa tendencia a la endogamia, y sus tímidos esfuerzos por acercarse a la realidad son obvios, como se puede comprobar en las ediciones de Fundamentos Web: un pie en la calle, dicen y lo hacen, sirva como prueba la brillante iniciativa de “el bus de los estándares” que recorrió toda España evangelizando sobre los beneficios de aplicar estándares W3C en la web. La una evolución de una web para todos, necesita acercar estas posturas y aunar esfuerzos o habrá una ruptura entre la web “oficial”, lenta, compleja, pero ¿segura? que soluciona problemas complejos no visibles y la “oficiosa”, simplificadora, ágil, con los pies en la realidad solucionando lo que se ve. Para crecer profesionalmente en la web, es necesario unir método y frescura. Abrirse y traducir al lenguaje de la calle las complejidades técnicas. En la era en que el diseño marca la diferencia, el W3C necesita más diseñadores para acercarse a la web real, muchos más. De todas maneras, ¿no estamos en el clásico revival diseñadores vs. desarrolladores? ¿no están los diseñadores también tanto o más desconectados de la web real que los desarrolladores? Creo que esun buen punto de debate con los propios afectados para Fundamentos Web este octubre en Oviedo. […]
November 5th, 2006 at 6:48 pm
[…] Recentemente os rumos da W3C esteve em pauta de debate em dezenas de blogs espalhados pelo mundo, inclusive com a participação de membros ativos e antigos como Zeldman, Molly, Meyer, Hickson, Veen, Hoehrmann, Malarkey dentre outros. A principal crítica é a falta de iniciativa da W3C e o avanço de outras iniciativas particulares como WHATWG e Microformats. Até mesmo a Molly Holzschlag que pareceu ser a mais conservadora na discussão reconhece : “One thing everyone agrees on, including me, is that the W3C is becoming very limited in terms of real-world contributions and other groups such as WHAT-WG and microformats.org are truly advancing the web, not the W3C.” (Tradução: Em uma coisa todos concordam, incluindo eu, é que a W3C está se tornando bastante limitada em termos de contribuição ao mundo real e outros grupos como o WHATWG e microformats.org estão progredindo a web, e não a W3C). […]
November 6th, 2006 at 8:32 am
[…] Recentemente os rumos da W3C esteve em pauta de debate em dezenas de blogs espalhados pelo mundo, inclusive com a participação de membros ativos e antigos como Zeldman, Molly, Meyer, Hickson, Veen, Hoehrmann, Malarkey dentre outros. A principal crítica é a falta de iniciativa da W3C e o avanço de outras iniciativas particulares como WHATWG e Microformats. Até mesmo a Molly Holzschlag que pareceu ser a mais conservadora na discussão reconhece : “One thing everyone agrees on, including me, is that the W3C is becoming very limited in terms of real-world contributions and other groups such as WHAT-WG and microformats.org are truly advancing the web, not the W3C.” (Tradução: Em uma coisa todos concordam, incluindo eu, é que a W3C está se tornando bastante limitada em termos de contribuição ao mundo real e outros grupos como o WHATWG e microformats.org estão progredindo a web, e não a W3C). […]
January 19th, 2007 at 2:16 pm
This post has suddenly become spanish. LOL. W3C is back.
February 7th, 2007 at 4:27 pm
[…]It’s a wonderful little cycle and we’re seeing it happen with the W3C succumbing to the weight of its bloat while the WHAT-WG and microformats.org are taking off.[…]
May 18th, 2007 at 11:23 pm
[…] Molly Holzschlag - Angry, Not: Zeldman, Meyer, and Fair Concerns About the W3C […]
May 24th, 2007 at 10:33 pm
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June 12th, 2007 at 7:02 pm
While the W3C folks stress that the Web services and Semantic Web are complementary, it seems to me that the Semantic Web is too far out in front of what enterprises need now.
July 15th, 2007 at 12:26 pm
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August 13th, 2007 at 11:38 am
[…] molly.com » Angry, Not: Zeldman, Meyer, and Fair Concerns About the W3C […]
September 6th, 2007 at 10:44 am
Thanks for very interesting article. I really enjoyed reading all of this posts. Greetings
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It’s a wonderful little cycle and we’re seeing it happen with the W3C succumbing to the weight of its bloat while the WHAT-WG and microformats.org are taking off
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January 8th, 2008 at 6:48 am
hikaye I’m biased, admittedly and unabashedly. I came to the W3C far later in the game than many of my colleagues. Why that is, we can save for another discussion on a different day. But the fact I’ve only had a year and a half in, and my experience has been almost wholly positive, well naturally I’m going to have a hopeful perspective
January 8th, 2008 at 6:48 am
It’s a wonderful little cycle and we’re seeing it happen with the W3C succumbing to the weight of its bloat while the WHAT-WG and microformats.org are taking off…
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January 8th, 2008 at 6:49 am
Molly Holzschlag - Angry, Not: Zeldman, Meyer, and Fair Concerns About the W3C
January 8th, 2008 at 6:50 am
everyone agrees on, including me, is that the W3C is becoming very limited in terms of real-world contributions and other groups such as WHAT-WG and microformats.org are truly advancing
January 8th, 2008 at 6:50 am
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January 8th, 2008 at 5:20 pm
everyone agrees on, including me, is that the W3C is becoming very limited in genco terms of real-world contributions and other groups such as WHAT-WG and
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January 8th, 2008 at 5:22 pm
everyone agrees on, including me, is that the W3C is becoming very limited in erdem odabaşı terms of real-world contributions and other groups such as WHAT-WG and çet microformats.org are truly advancing
January 8th, 2008 at 5:23 pm
everyone agrees on, including me, is that the W3C is becoming very limited in Gökhan özen terms of real-world contributions and other groups such as WHAT-WG and çin takvimi microformats.org are truly advancing
January 8th, 2008 at 5:24 pm
everyone agrees on, including me, is that the W3C is becoming very limited in Testere 4 terms of real-world contributions and other groups such as WHAT-WG and lezbiyen microformats.org are truly advancing
January 8th, 2008 at 5:25 pm
everyone agrees on, including me, is that the W3C is becoming very limited in adsl kota terms of real-world contributions and other groups such as WHAT-WG and lezbiyen Emekli Sandığı are truly advancing
January 8th, 2008 at 5:26 pm
everyone agrees on, including me, is that the W3C is becoming very limited in adsl kota terms of real-world contributions and other groups such as WHAT-WG and dizi izle aşk hikayeleri are truly advancing
January 17th, 2008 at 9:33 am
thanks
January 26th, 2008 at 2:32 pm
I’m terribly glad that I don’t have to write html email templates at part çet of my job anymore, whew.
Thanks Microsoft, yet another _wonderful_ rendering engine, yay! kadınlar
Welcome to 2008!!!! since
January 28th, 2008 at 9:02 am
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January 31st, 2008 at 9:43 pm
Those who choose to take the “slights and disappointments” path, meanwhile, are very generously compensated for their trouble
February 3rd, 2008 at 5:33 am
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February 25th, 2008 at 1:53 pm
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February 28th, 2008 at 8:33 am
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April 8th, 2008 at 7:50 am
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April 8th, 2008 at 5:42 pm
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April 8th, 2008 at 11:02 pm
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April 9th, 2008 at 8:00 am
do you know everything about css?
April 9th, 2008 at 4:46 pm
how can i find everything about css?
April 10th, 2008 at 6:50 am
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April 11th, 2008 at 10:12 am
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April 21st, 2008 at 3:51 pm
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April 21st, 2008 at 6:49 pm
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April 21st, 2008 at 6:49 pm
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April 21st, 2008 at 7:58 pm
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April 24th, 2008 at 7:38 am
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