molly.com
Saturday 24 June 2006
Where to Live Next
I’ve been researching places where I’d best like to live next. Don’t know if anyone else is thinking of same, but here are some of my findings.
I’m so excited because I get to use a table, a real live true table, in this post! TWO in fact, because I’m just that thrilled (seriously).
Here is a comparison chart of what my research results show so far, first by U.S. findings:
| Location | Attractions | Social Benefits | Economy |
|---|---|---|---|
| U.S. East Coast Cluster (NJ, NY, MD, DC, VA) USA | Culturally, I’m a good fit since I grew up in New Jersey, but I did once say I never wanted to live there again. I could change my mind | Some very good friends and family members in this area | Surprisingly more affordable than I realized |
| San Francisco, CA USA | My favorite city in the world (so far) | Phenomenal friendship network | Extremely expensive, high stress potential |
| San Jose (and South Bay Cities), CA USA | Really dislike the area. Strip malls and cars. | Very good social / work resources and good social network | Extremely expensive |
| Santa Fe, NM USA | Beautiful, stunning, progressive, artistic location with great climate, but little water | Good potential social network | Medium expensive. Outlying areas are less expensive, but also with less services |
| Tucson, AZ USA | Beautiful location, already own home and business here | Limited social support, bad economy | Very affordable |
And now by U.K. findings:
| Location | Attractions | Social Benefits | Economy |
|---|---|---|---|
| London, UK | Vibrant, productive scene, one of the world’s truly amazing cities | Lots of friends, socialized medicine | Damned expensive |
| Newcastle, UK | Lively and growing cultural scene, unique beauty, oh but lord it can get cold | Lots of friends, socialized medicine | Medium expensive, it could work |
What do you think? How about you, looking to go other places, and if so where and why?
Filed under: society, travel
Posted by: Molly | 14:28 | Comments (161)
What, no mention of Australia?
Seriously though, your roundup does suggest that SF would be the way to go if money was no object. So I guess the first question is whether the money/stress would outweigh your love of the city.
New York is a great city, I love it, but based on your chart, doesn’t Newcastle look the best?
Also, you should check out Toronto. It’s a great city; it’s very similar to New York, but a bit colder in the winter, and cheaper. That, and it has nationalized free public healthcare, like the UK.
Based on your reasons for moving and considering all the places I have lived–Washington, D.C., Portland, OR, Austin, TX, Albuquerque, Northern Nevada, Santa Fe and a couple of places in Europe–I recommend Austin. Though Austin is not on your list and it is unpleasantly hot in the summer, it is the most socially welcoming city I have ever lived in. People are friendly and interesting, well educated, well traveled and into everything. The cost of living is low, including housing prices. There are vibrant web, tech, and art scenes with an overall decent economy that supports entrepreneurs. I have been invited to parties, poetry slams and myriad other social events in line at the grocery store, waiting for the bus, at the public pool, walking my dog, etc. Until I left I did not realize how remarkable a place Austin is.
As a second place option, although I have never been there, I have heard that Dublin is also a very friendly city with a great social scene, strong economy and especially strong tech environment.
Australia, I can only talk about the western side.
Attractions:
Laid back Californian lifestyle, Californian/Mediterranean climate without the stress, people or smog.
Socialized medicine
Great local web community: http://port80.asn.au
Most isolated city in the world (which is good and bad)
Economy booming, which means house prices have gone mad, from US$60,000 five years ago to US$180,000 for a three bedroom house in a cheap suburb.
Molly, you might want to try before you buy: http://www.canicrash.org/. Do a world tour and see what fits the best.
Moving to England would be a nice change of scenery and a chance to build new business relationships as well as make new friends this side of the pond.
Being English, I am obviously bias, but it really isn’t that bad, although I do plan on moving to Spain within the next 10 years…a change of scenery, culture, language and a chance to build new relationships…
ps – Leeds and Manchester are very nice cities to live. The architecture is fantastic and the night life is excellent.
I think you know which of your options I’d recommend. The one thing I’d say though is that you’ll get used to the cold in Newcastle .. and most people here aren’t mad enough to walk on the beach in winter. That was special for you
You have to remember, I used to live in Cape Town and Durban — both hot, only differing in humidity! Newcastle is fairly easy to adapt too and if your central heating is good you’ll be fine.
Here in the UK there’s a saying “the people get nicer the further north you go”. As a born and bred southerner I’m ashamed to say that this really is true. My partner and I are mulling on the moving thing and we’ve decided that the people – and whether you feel comfortable around them and like you ‘fit in’ – are the number one thing. There are great people around down South where I am now (just north of Jon H), but often they seem drowned out by a lot of… Well, let’s just say much less pleasant people.
I’ve lived and worked in lots of different places here in the UK and I’d move like a shot to either Newcastle or Glasgow. I spent 3 years studying in Newcastle and it’s just brilliant. Down to earth, lively, cultured but not pretentous, socially diverse, 20 minutes drive from glorious countryside and only a couple of hours from the Scottish Highlands. It’s really not that cold (my sister lived in an unheated flat in Edinburgh for a year once – now *that’s* cold) and being on the east coast it doesn’t rain so much either.
As Jon says, Glasgow is also great. In fact the UK’s northern cities – Newcastle, Glasgow, Manchester, Leeds – all offer much of London’s cultural buzz at better prices and with (generally) nicer people.
UpMyStreet.com is handy for checking out specific areas with crime stats, local government info, house prices and more.
Wow, what timing. I’m thinking of moving again soon.
London:
Lived there for over 15 years, loved it when I was younger but the noise and pollution got the better of me when I was trying to do serious work… car alarm hell to me now. Lovely place to visit, wouldn’t want to live there
Brighton:
Seriously though it’s a great place, a lot of media businesses down there. A really good mixed culture. Getting as expensive as London quite quickly if you want to be near the sea at all. I did enjoy my time there before I moved up to Cumbria.
Was excellent, then started to fill up with Londoners
Newcastle:
Never lived there, only visited so can’t comment.
If you did end up up north though you’d be most welcome to come and run away to the nurturing cumbrian mountains when you needed to. I’ll post another comment later with the picture of where I’m planning to move. It’s a lone house in a valley. A real rural idyll, but one that’s fitted with capacity for 8 phone lines. Peace, beauty and a whole heap of Broadband… Ahhhhhhhhhh.
Canada for the win – Vancouver or Toronto are both short-listed cities in my emigration dream. Vancouver has the nod because it’s closer to Whistler, my personal snowboarding Mecca.
Hello Molly,
First visit to the site after starting to read your book (fantastic by the way)
Anyway I live in the UK near Newcastle in a town called Washington. (DC got it from us lol)
It is a very historic and friendly town. Visit: http://www.washington.co.uk/washington_index.htm
Yes it can be a little cold during the winter, but as you will see it has much to offer.
COME LIVE HERE!!!
Kind regards
paulxxx
As a Canadian living about 4 hrs from Toronto and 5 hrs from Ottawa, I would recommend either. As Joe stated, the winters in Ottawa are tougher than Toronto (colder and more snow but beautiful and with wonderful skating on a 5 mile/8 km stretch of frozen canal) but in Ottawa’s favour, it is smaller and much more attractive. In Toronto, you would get a milder winter (hotter and more humid summer) and a much more diverse community. Both have a strong and diverse health community (hospitals, medical schools, alternative treatments) and both
are within driving distance so we could meethave great communities of peoples.If I could ditch reality I’d move somewhere tropical.
If I had to make a living I’d consider the NW area. I love how lush and green Oregon is. Living overseas would be a great expereince too, but I’m not sure I’d want it to be permanent.
Is the SE completely out of the question? I don’t know why but Asheville (NC) tends to attract people from New York, Ohio and Colorado. Before Asheville became a hip town, it was known as place where people came to get better. Today, Asheville has alternative therapists/doctors out the wazoo. The web/technical scene is still on the small side, but we have a thriving artist community. Parts of Asheville are also very Community oriented.
I talked my mom into retiring here and I’m slowing working on the rest of my friends that still live in the NE area.
I second the vote for colorado. Very healthy state, relaxed, improving public transportation, beautiful mountains, wonderful downtown dining…
Also, more sunny days than San Diego.
The north coast of Ohio is nice. We’re close to Cleveland which has a major international airport, Detroit, 5 hours from Chicago if you drive… The area is extremely tech-savvy and artistic. It’s close to everything, but out of the way enough to give you some peace and quiet if you need it.
I’m disappointed Seattle didn’t make your list. I’ve worked with a number of NY transplants – you just have to choose the right area of the city. I’d be happy to show you around, or talk it over over the great coffee I still owe you, maybe when you’re here for Web Design World?
Molly,
In the Mid Atlantic area Baltimore is a place to consider. It’s grown up nicely, is close to DC, Philly & NYC, has great food and a decent web design & development community not to mention it’s the home of John Waters and the annual Hon Fest!
Peter
If you are actually considering NM (USA) you might consider Albuquerque rather than Santa Fe. It’s less expensive, and only 45 minutes from Santa Fe. Still no water, though. A youngster like yourself probably doesn’t read the AARP magazine, but the last issue listed Las Cruces, NM as one of the nicest and most affordable places in the US.
What’s this? No mention of Boston?
If I was nauseatingly rich, I’d move to SF or London in a heartbeat. I also wouldn’t mind landing in Chicago at some point in my life.
Joe’s right about the Winters in Ottawa. Spring is fairly messy. And the Summers are friggin’ humid. I guess Autumn is nice.
What the hell am I doing here?
Northern VA. Hehe.
Hi Molly,
How bout good ole Canada.
British Columbia is beautiful and thriving.
Why anyone would want to live anywhere in the US other than the northeast is beyond me. Come home, Molly!
Hi,
If London is on your list, consider Luton just north of London. There is a train into London that friends of mine use it every day and it works suprisingly well for them.
Next time you are in London get a train map and just see where the ineresting sounding places are on the outside of the M25.
Given your health issues, the socialised medicine may put a +1 into the UK column.
If you dont mind a longer commute maybe consider York.
All of this is based on “holiday” trips and where friends live rather than first hand experience.
And cold can be good, you get to wear really great hand knit jumpers.
thatch
If UK, may I introduce Edinburgh, capital of Scotland? For me Edinburgh is like a London in small format and less crowdy. The architecture is beautiful, the Highlands give plenty of leisure, the climate is “not too hot and not too cold” and the people are friendly. Actually I do not know whether it is less, more or equal expensive as London, but I know E. is worth a visit.
Hi Molly
Plenty of recommendations for Newcastle – I’ll add mine too. Its a great place and growing a good IT/web presence as the great IT migration continues from the south. Some of the most spectacular parts of the UK are within 2 hours drive. The coast is unspoilt and stunning, friendly people, good arts and music scene, and isn’t it just a little boring if the sun is shining all the time?
Its a great place to be alive in.
All the best
Peter
Hi Molly! Have you ever consider Spain, Barcelona?
I would recomend you, i’m sure you would enjoy the place.
There is a good web scene, it`s very affordable, and sure
you quickly make new friends, or met someones.
Newcastle is cold, outside, in a tshirt. It’s lovely and warm in coffee shops and bars with friends
I don’t need to sell it to you all over again… please grace us with yr presence! 
Come now, Ottawa’s winters are not that bad. They build character and you’ve neglected to mention all the benefits, like fantastic skating on the world’s largest skating rink, snowshoeing or cross-country skiing in the Gatineaus, and downhill skiing not too far away – oh, and eating Beavertails! Not to mention how gorgeous the snow looks when it covers everything in a rich, white, velvety blanket.
We have a fantastic system of bike trails if you’re into running, biking, rollerblading, or even just walking – not to mention a great public transportation system. We have some gorgeous scenery, Parliament Hill probably being one of the best, many many museums, two large universities, great music and art festivals, and I could go on and on.
Ottawa is a great place to live!
Hey Molly,
Sorry to hear that you might be leaving us here in lovely Tucson, although I’ve been thinking about moving myself for much different reasons. Personally for me I’ve found Tucson filled with wonderful and talented people in Web and programming (the JUG I helped start is one of the best because of the talented people here). My reason for moving has all about to do the summers, I am very tired of the heat (although I do love the monsoons, which unfortunately have been very weak these past few years). As for where I would like to move the two places on the top of my list are San Francisco (which I’ve already lived in and absolutely loved it) and Portland, OR (which I visited last summer and fell in love with it – it reminded me of SF so much).
Anyways, I hope you find a suitable place, moving can definitely re-energize you.
I left my heart in San Francisco… (7 years ago)
I’ve delayed my response, as I have a bias as a Santa Fean.
That said, I think you should look at what your priorities are, and filter responses accordingly.
When I lived in Albuquerque, up until about ten years ago, I didn’t like it because “there wasn’t a there there.” That’s no longer true. Richard Florida’s ideas are alive and well there, and you wouldn’t have to drive an hour to get to an airport.
Health care in New Mexico isn’t going to be much better than in Tucson. For this reason, I’d look at what the Canadians are saying, especially re Vancouver and Victoria. Not as much snow as many U.S. cities, let alone Montreal. Doesn’t get too hot or too cold (Heat and humidity in summer bothered me more in QC and ON than BC). Pricey though.
If you put a priority on reducing stress, Santa Fe is relaxing to be sure. That also means that if a service person is scheduled to come on Tuesday, you’d better ask which Tuesday. Massage therapists everywhere, including students at the several schools.
Probably more good restaurants per capita than most cities anywhere.
Beautiful climate. We bitch and moan when the temperature nears 90 (usually 5-10 degrees cooler than Albuquerque. It might hit 100 once a year, 95 5-10 days total). It snows, but you rarely (once a year maybe) have to shovel it if you don’t live in the mountains.
Water. We don’t have it. On the other hand, we’re experts at not using it. The sight of a lawn is almost shocking, yet xeriscaping is mostly well done, rather than a yard of rocks that you sometimes see in drought-prone climes.
I know you have New Mexico clients, but I’m not sure how often you actually see them in person. The fact that you can’t fly most places non-stop may be a factor. Probably familiar to you in that Tucson is pretty much the same way. Free wifi throughout ABQ terminal though.
In a nutshell, what’s most important to you? Healthcare costs, existing/potential social network, population size/density, ease of travel access, political/social makeup, arts community, number of web geeks, need of your skills? Putting these in order of importance may help tip the scales in favor of a couple of finalists.
Molly. I just moved back to San Francisco last weekend. Starting over. Single with two young children. Sure, there’s some risk involved, but I feel so happy/alive again. That’s what important, and I’ll be damned if I’m going to go out with a whimper.
As for as other US cities… Portland is way, way cooler than San Francisco as far as cuisine, the arts, and beautiful people go (to the point where it’s almost embarrassing). But hey… if YOU moved to SF, it would totally even the score.
some where on the european continent i think is where i could see myself, although some advice; don’t come to scotland (im scottish and currently live in scotland) as the culture sucks.
don’t believe the stuff you read and hear about the culture, etc as the people are tired, deprived and over worked and their attitude shows that.
for me to say that as a scots man, i’m embarrassed but god, it’s the truth
anyway, where ever you end up, enjoy yourself and i hope it works out for you.
Molly,
I think Canada is the way to go.
While I currently live in Toronto, my heart lies on the East Coast, however, the economy there cannot support me, so I am planning on migrating within the next year or 2 to Vancouver. The central provinces just lack the geographical beauty of the coasts (which, having visited Tucson, I would miss if I was you).
But in terms of the web communities, either city (or Ottawa for that matter-except that winters there do suck), would be more than willing to welcome you with open arms.
I was in the same shoes as you this year and I have to say it was a difficult for me to eliminate the options too. I was considering a broad list like yours: LA, SF, NY, Miami, London, Istanbul, Kiev anyways..
I concluded for myself that most cities are going to be expensive and that you need to make a choice based on your career prospects, and also “Visa” requirements of the country if you’re looking to go abroad.
So, London somewhat was out of question because of that but I would recommend London for the vibrant & international city life if you can get a visa.
Barcelona or Madrid are amazing cities with a healthy, balanced lifestyle for people of all ages but I don’t know about the business potential there. Again Visa is an issue, as an American you can only “live” there for 6 months, but not work.
So in the States..
Someone mentioned Austin in the comments, I was in Austin for SXSW. I found the city to be somewhat small, and spread-out, more suburban.. and the food variety was not too diverse, more tex-mex dominant in most restaurants it seemed like.
Seattle is a beautiful city, if you live in downtown, and it’s a lot of fun, but it rains a lot and that’s why I wanted to leave Seattle.
NY is too chaotic, big and expensive. Also, you have to eliminate all your basic belongings in a buddhist kind of way, no car, no nice apartment etc…
Miami is a bit too relaxed. It’s good for trade but not great for high-tech work.
LA is very nice. I wish I was in entertainment.
In the end, I moved down back to the Bay Area. It is expensive, but there is nowhere like here for social networking and meeting really international, interesting, diverse people. If you are a techie, this is pretty much the place to be imho.
When I retire, I’ll move to Brazil or Spain
In my dreams, I’d move the a caribean island, I fell in love on my honeymoon (with the island, I was already in love with the guy I went with
) but practically, it wouldn’t work.
Out of your list, I think London would be first, and although I’ve never been there, SanFran is the american city that appeals the most to me, Chicago comes second…
I guess if you found a place out of the heart of London, in the suburbs, you would still have access to the “beat” of it, but you could return to a more peaceful neighbourhood. I love London as a city, my mother was born and raised there and has great memories of it.
Otherwise, for a good climate and above average healthcare, Toulouse (South West France) is a great city. there are plenty of internationals here, the Aeronautics industry is booming, and high tech businesses are developing fast. You have regular quick air-links to Paris, London, and many other european cities, plus world-wide connections of course. The city is beautiful and just the right size to have things going on but still be “human-sized”. And it beats Limoges hands down (but then the less-trendy suburbs of Calcutta probably beat Limoges too…)
Oh, and it’s got me, of course
(but don’t let that put you off !)
Molly
I came to Portland 18 years ago on vacation. When I got back home in Southern California we put our home up for sale and moved here 3 months later.
As far as the Oregon Coast you might want to check out Cannon Beach on the web. It’s about 90 miles or so from Portland. The lifestyle is definitely one to envy over there.
Good luck on your search for a new city!
I can’t blame you from wanting to leave the heat of Arizona. San Diego, my home town, is a lovely place to live. It’s less expensive the San Fran and L.A. and also has much better weather. It also has a taco shop on every corner which should be on all of our travel brochures.
I’m waiting for my chance to move to Paris. But I’d also look into Seattle, Vancouver, and go for San Francisco. It’s probably the best place for you and your peeps. Don’t worry about the cost of living, you can just plan on visiting your friends at Google for free lunch, follow Tech Crunch for the free dinner launch parties, and get your wardrobe free ala startup schwag.
@Molly. I read once how you loved Tucson because of the wide open spaces. So if you moved to a dense city, you’d be leaving this behind. (Leading to possible feelings of claustrophobia?). I guess NY’s out then…
As for Newcastle, be warned that the British weather sucks! If you love long hot summers, well I’ve had to put my central heating back on this week, as it was so chilly! It’s not right for the time of year! Sometimes it’s like winter goes on forever, with summer occuring for only a few weeks, if you’re lucky. It can even snow in April or May!
Scotland suffers from the coldest weather, with snow often forecast, so I don’t fancy that myself. Whereas London gets the sweltering heat. Did they tell you we don’t have air-conditioning in many businesses? The weather’s simply not hot long enough to warrant it! A desk fan is an essential requirement.
Can’t beat the friendliness of the people in the UK of course. Not sure all of them love Americans though? Bush is much hated over here. (But then so is Prime Minister Tony Blair LOL).
As for Newcastle, would you be able to cope with the Geordie accent? Even Brits have trouble with that sometimes! It’s dead sexy on the women though! Ahem. And it’s true – the men have a reputation for walking round in t-shirts when it’s freezing. At least so I’ve heard. Something about proving how ‘hard’ they are?
How bout the great Lehigh Valley in Pennsylvania, 2hrs to New York City, 1 1/2 hrs to Philly…..
There are places in London which are cheaper than you may actually think. Don’t rule out London till you check out some places outside of Central London.
Where ever you go, remember London loves Molly.
I bet you’d love Seattle and I bet you’d really love Vancouver BC. Van is a great city, top on my list of places I’d like to live.
Oh, and don’t let the Pacific Northwest rain stuff deter you. It can get a bit gloomy here in the winter (although lots of folks like it for the first week or so) but I’m pretty sure we actually get more sun throughout the year than SF. July-October here is really nice.
Hey Molly
I lived in Tucson for about 3 years and then just moved back to my hometown of Louisville Kentucky a few months ago. I am going to live in Kentucky while I finish getting my degree (software engineering).
I can agree with you that Tucson has wonderful open spaces, and fresh air. I absolutely loved the mountains surrounding the city. I enjoyed some of the hiking trails in the surrounding mountains. I did find some of the social groups in Tucson to be enjoyable, but then I found them to be lacking at times. It seems that most of the people that I’ve met who have lived in Tucson all of their lives are ready to move somewhere else, even if for a little while. Most of them say they are tired of the heat, but I think it has to do with wanting a change of scenery. I think humans are naturally more nomadic than we give ourselves credit for. I think it is fear and stress that makes people want to “settle down” so often.
I did website design during the last year or two while I was living in Tucson. I didn’t get a complete understanding of the web design scene there, but my limited impression was that it was lacking. In fact, I didn’t even know that someone such as yourself, who is prominent in the industry, lived in Tucson. That surprised me. I had read about various webdesign firms and individuals in Phoenix, but didn’t think that Tucson had much of a web design/development community at all.
That being said, I also had the impression that Tucson offered a lot of opportunity for web development business. There is a lot of uncharted territory in Tucson, lots of business to be had. Phoenix is crowded, and Tucson is like Phoenix’s forgotten younger brother (in terms of business).
I did move there because I enjoy warm weather, or that was one of the reasons. At times, the heat in late summer was difficult to take. However, one of the reasons why I left is due to the limited moisture. When I moved back to Kentucky, that is the one thing that gave me a sigh of relief. There is moisture in the air in Kentucky. People here complain about it being humid in the summer, but I have an appreciation for that. I don’t feel dehydrated here.
Oh, I also missed greenery. It was getting old looking at various shades of tan all of the time.
I won’t be living in Kentucky forever either. I’ll be scouring through the comments in your blog to get ideas about where I might want to live in a year or so, when I’m done getting my software engineering degree. A friend of mine (graphic designer) just moved to SF last year and she loves it. Sounds enjoyable, but expensive. I’ve heard good things about Canada in general, and northwest US (portland, etc). I’m not much of a cold-weather person though, so I don’t know about that. I guess if I’m making enough money, weather won’t play a huge role. I can plan visits to warmer climate. I enjoy travelling
Good luck!
I think you should serioulsy consider Canada.
We have a more liberal society, and a much better worldwide reputation. Many foriegners love to hear that you are a “Canadian” when you travel!
Think about Vancouver BC perhaps …. and maybe taking on a protege …
Ohh and I am available if you make the intelligent choice to become a Canadian!
Corey
(please don’t move to Santa Fe, you’re too awesome for that!)
I found you through ‘A List Apart’ – The splash page you did for ‘Kutztown University: Communication Design Department’ is just about my favorite ever. I’ve refreshed I don’t know how many times just to see the building draw in. =]
I have to agree with Amanda – say no to Santa Fe (unless you really love the high desert). Santa Fe claims to be progressive, but when you live here, you find out its community is just as rigid and set-in-its-ways as the next place. Diversity of thought is a challenge. Plus, compared to other places on your list, it very 3rd world.
Don’t settle – go to your “favorite in the world.” San Francisco is horribly expensive, but if you love it there, you will find a way to make it work. Plus, you don’t have to live in the City to take advantage of the area’s amenities (in fact, I think many of the outlying communities are much nicer than the heart of downtown San Francisco).
Yeah, yeah, bias, but just remember. We have Belle and Herbs!
Mooly,
have enjoyed hearing you speak several times.
Please consider moving to Portland, Oregon in the beautiful Pacific Northwest. I’ve lived in San Francisco and Portland reminds me of it.
We are home to the first wiki and rapidly becoming the open source capital of the world. It’s also the silicon forest.
I live in Portland (OR), and I have to recommend it. We just got named as Most Chill City (ugh) for young creatives. As a middle-aged creative, it’s not a bad place to be for all the reasons already said, and the high tech economy has really picked up. My complaints about it are that it’s lily-white, perhaps too laid back, and public education is failing.
If I had to move anywhere, I’d go to Vancouver BC or Toronto. Toronto is more urban, Vancouver more laid-back, both just remarkably sweet.
Oh, and we have Good Dog/Bad Dog, as well as even better hot dog stands here!