molly.com
Monday 26 September 2005
Taxing the Internet and Trying my Patience
TAXING THE INTERNET is not a new idea, nor is it particularly novel. However, so far we’ve managed to stave off the issue because responsible, globally oriented people have worked hard to not allow that to happen. But now the problem is resurfacing, and from a disturbing sector - the blogging public.
Fellow author and blogger Dave Taylor writes about why he thinks an Internet tax for online commerce is a good idea. With each word in his post, particularly in the interview section, I felt my well-known idealistic self losing all patience and wanting to scream out loud.
The problems with Internet taxation are pretty damned self-evident. The first problem is the global nature of the medium. Who gets the tax money? How is it regulated? Where does it go? Just think for a moment of the infrastructure that would have to be put in place to manage something of that nature. Who would fund that? And to what benefit? Just thinking about it should make every reader here very, very concerned.
As if we really need more layers of Kafkaesque hell in this world.
Then there are privacy issues. Taxing online purchases means that not only will sellers have access to information about how, where and when I purchase goods, but so will governments. I’m of the mindset that privacy is mostly dead anyway, but I surely don’t want to purposely give any government more information - particularly about where my earnings (that aren’t ripped out of my hands in the first place) actually go.
I do not believe many people selling online will want to participate in taxation. It hurts, not helps, the business model. The global marketplace thrives in many cases because people aren’t taxed. This is good news for both sellers and buyers because we get rid of the middleman. What about states rights, too? Certain states in the U.S. have no sales tax. Suddenly those individuals are being taxed? I can only imagine how this breaks down when we begin to examine taxation worldwide.
If the sentiment is to take tax money and use it for good, well that’s a nice sentiment. I haven’t seen that happen here in the U.S. In fact, my tax dollars have been mishandled to the point that I live in a constant state of shock and horror as my nation makes blunder after blunder, committing my hard-earned dollars to a war I firmly believe we shouldn’t be in and simultaneously failing its nation’s citizens during some of the darkest, saddest days we’ve ever known. I am deeply ashamed of my nation, which for the record, I happen to love very much for its freedoms despite this current government’s failings.
The Internet and specifically the Web are instruments of global change. The most noble manifestation of the Web is how it brings us together as people, matching those that have with those that need. Idealistic? You bet. But there are plenty of instances to point to where people around the Web have come together during crises to inform, assist and comfort. Adding regulatory and governmental complexity to the soup isn’t going to help anyone economically, except government.
Surely from such a sophisticated global network as we have with the Internet, which is contributed to daily by hundreds of thousands of people from all walks of life as well as all nations, can emerge a far better means of community fundraising, goods distribution and individual responsibility that eliminates the need for Internet taxes, or any taxes, at all.
Filed under: policies, society
Posted by: Molly | 12:24 pm |
September 26th, 2005 at 2:32 pm
You are right.
There is no money in it, but there is power and knowledge.
Privacy is an illusion, or maybe we do have some, but it is bought from us (when filling forms, or accepting cookies, with data that will be stored away) and it sold to us (when using anonymous e-mail accounts, or passing our traffic via proxys, or chatting under aliases).
Privacy is an illusion, find anything about anybody, just follow the electronic trail we are leaving behind, in comments like this one, in old homepages in Geocities (and who hasn’t one of those), and blogs, and on line e-mail accounts, and flickr and del.icio.us and where not?
Our privacy is a commodity, and people who want to track commodity movement on the net for taxes want to buy our privacy for free as a side bonus.
September 26th, 2005 at 2:41 pm
I couldn’t agree with you more that an Internet tax is a poor idea. I really wouldn’t mind a tax if the argument was something other than there’s-some revenue-we’re-missing-out-on. If it was tax to improve the Internet(fighting fraud, spam, etc.) or making the Internet more accessible to everyone then I wouldn’t grumble so much.
September 26th, 2005 at 7:35 pm
meh. I doubt this would ever happen. It ranks right up with my worries about whether or not Balmer can unstuck his head from his arse and start ol’ Billies company-a-makin’ money again.
If they were going to tax me on my copious amounts of internet money squanderings, I guess I would just drive into town more often. Maybe if the telco’s stopped gettin’ their way, this wouldn’t be an issue - but I guess that’s like sayin’ GW isn’t letting the Oil co’s rape our land…
September 26th, 2005 at 8:23 pm
I see no reason for ever taxing the World Wide Web (or the Internet Infrastructure for that matter). Which poor government needs the extra tax again? To do what? I have a similar government in alliance with your’s Molly and we have crappy hospitals but money to go fight oil wars and follow George around the globe.
Tim Berners Lee gave us this World Wide Web for free. Its about the sharing of information with hyperlinking and creating a global community. Unfortunately sad money grubbers will always be looking for their slice of the pie and taxing is just another angle to get the cash.
Tax the internet and I’ll see that’s time for me to put on my old clobber to go back to solid work.
September 26th, 2005 at 8:29 pm
[…] ed under: Business — nortypig @ 2:30 pm Molly is rightly angry about Dave Taylor’s notion its Time For […]
September 26th, 2005 at 8:49 pm
1> No tax on internet - they already got plenty tax from me when I bought this dang contraption that USES the internet. They tax electrons pretty well too.
2> YES - tax email. Each sender of E-mail should pay 1¢ for each mail sent after the first 100/month. That would stop spamming cold. If I sent 400 in a month (never have yet) it would cost me $3.00. But the spammer who sends 100,000 a day would have to pay $1000/day !
September 27th, 2005 at 4:17 am
RanWiz, you’re assuming that spammers are good people that pay their taxes.
Any taxation based on geography (which is basically any taxation) is just not going to work on the web, where geographical boundaries don’t really apply. Surely it’s much easier to look at businesses (and individuals) situated in a particular jurisdiction and tax them on their profits/income. If the government needs more money, let them convince their electorate that it’s a good idea, and increase regular taxes rather than dreaming up new impractical ones.
I tend to Benjamin Franklin’s view of the inevitability of taxation, and don’t think it’s necessarily a bad thing. A fair tax system is an excellent way of distributing the burden of funding a community between its members. Would you really welcome a tax-free anarchy? I think it would be a nightmare.
September 27th, 2005 at 4:25 am
“so far we’ve managed to stave off the issue because responsible, globally oriented people have worked hard to not allow that to happen.”
Er… and also some big businesses and other types who would benefit most from no or low taxation… There are certainly interests related to power and the like in this, not just good intentions.
Personally I would agree with you that it seems impractical. Whether in theory it is a good thing I am still likely to side with you. But, I personally don’t for one minute think it is as it currently is because of ‘responsible’ people. I think it is mainly because greedy people that have a lot of money already have a lot of clout and power and the internet works for them.
I too hope that as a globalizing force the internet can be used for good…!
September 27th, 2005 at 4:46 am
The whole argument seems rather pointless. If I buy something from the internet within the EC, I have to pay the sales tax of that country. If I buy something from the US, I don’t. (but am faced with higher transportation cost).
Same thing if I sell something through the internet. For some countries I have to charge sales-tax, for some I don’t.
So the whole seems to pivot around US tax-laws. Because out of state sales do not require any sales it seems that taxing internet sales is not an adequate answer. A federal sales-tax would seem a more logic solution.
The “cutting out the middle man” only works in cases where the internet is the sole channel of distribution.
If I were to sell my art through the internet cheaper than I would through a gallery or agent, I would piss off the “middle-men” and would not have a middle-man left. Which I don’t want to do.
That argument goes for a lot of businesses.
And the bankrupcy of brick and mortar companies? That merely is a matter of not having adapted business-models to the current situation. I honestly can’t feel sorry for those business. (I can for the people involved being laid-off, because of ignorant management).
September 27th, 2005 at 7:21 am
You’re absolutely right, Molly! The government has its fingers in virtually every area of my life, I certainly don’t want to give them any more access!
September 27th, 2005 at 8:19 am
It sounds like this isn’t a tax on the “internet” per se, as much as it’s a tax on commodities sold via the internet. Two completely different things. The infrastructure for taxing commodities is already in place for most companies.
Personally, I think that a national sales tax makes more sense than income tax. Why should we be taxed for working and making a living? If I’m saving my money to pay for something that probably wouldn’t be taxed, such as schooling, why do I have to pay the same taxes as the person next door that spends all his money on entertainment?
September 27th, 2005 at 11:22 am
Amen, Molly. Amen.
We have an issue in the Netherlands where our mail service (TPG Post) has mentioned a few times that they want to charge something for every e-mail you send. Why? Because they’re not selling stamps as much anymore.
I laughed at first, thinking they were obviously joking. Sadly, they weren’t. Haven’t heard from them in a while now, though. I think people clued them in on the ludicrousness of their idea…
September 27th, 2005 at 2:21 pm
have you heard of the byte tax?
http://www.caslon.com.au/taxationguide2.htm
btw, I have no objection to the collection of sales tax/vat for online purchaes
September 29th, 2005 at 3:52 pm
The Internet is an organic entity. It must be allowed continued free evolution, for the benefit of all.
September 29th, 2005 at 10:57 pm
I really don’t believe in taxing the internet, but I have this feeling we may end up paying taxes through our ISPs in an attempt for the MPAA and RIAA to stop online piracy. Eventually, the record and movie companies would end up being compensated.
But just as much as a hosting provider could be held responsible for illegal content on it’s servers, because their machinery is located in a physical place in their juristiction, the company which connects you to the internet could be taxed in the same way.
September 30th, 2005 at 4:05 pm
*sigh* Why can’t everyone just try to stay out of each other’s business. If the internet was still being used only by colleges, the government wouldn’t think twice about taxing it (meaning they wouldn’t tax it). This is just annoying now… oh well, that’s what happens when idiots have control of the world.
October 1st, 2005 at 4:51 pm
I really don’t understand the point of introducing a special Internet Sales Tax. If I buy from an online store here in Australia, I already pay GST, just as I would when I walk into and buy from a local store. If I buy from an online store in another country, I’d expect the price to include any relevant taxes from that country too.
As I understand it, he seems to be using flaws in the US tax system (whereby online stores seem to be somehow exempt from paying taxes???) as a reason to introduce an Internet tax which, by its very nature, would affect stores globally!? Perhaps I’m completely misunderstanding it, but I agree that it seems quite stupid.
October 5th, 2005 at 9:17 am
I’m with your other non-US posters on this one. Here in Scotland, I pay VAT [sales tax] at 17.5% on most things whether it’s from a shop or a website. Even eBay sellers have VAT included in what they sell you.
The USA doesn’t own the interweb and its tax systems are out-of-step with most other countries. Global solutions to local problems are:
a) not the answer, and
b) not feasible
November 18th, 2005 at 3:44 pm
I dont believe anyone should have to pay taxes online for anything.
December 8th, 2005 at 1:58 pm
Interested yet which one taxes we have to pay ? wrr ….
January 9th, 2006 at 8:31 am
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February 25th, 2006 at 6:06 pm
Taxes should be, but not everywhere, Internet therefore he is developing that politicians noted know much about the Internet, only now he is starting dawning on to them that it is possible in the Internet to earn money. I am supposed to support hopes that very much a long way they will be thinking how to take taxes behind the Internet because it isn’t easy.
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April 7th, 2006 at 3:47 pm
I don’t like taxes, they are too high… how will move close sie I am puzzling the period of paying oneself for what as many as this many.
March 28th, 2007 at 7:43 am
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May 6th, 2007 at 1:48 pm
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September 9th, 2007 at 11:32 pm
[…] The scope of this post is not to include the pros and cons regarding ITFA, PITFA, or ITFEA. This post is to show that once again Ron Paul acts on what he preaches, do not raise taxes and shrink government. If you want to delve into the pros and cons further then I suggest you take a look at “Making the ‘Internet Tax Freedom Act’ Permanent Could Lead to a Substantial Revenue Loss for States and Localities” {cry me a river}, “Taxing the Internet and Trying My Patience”, and “Here we go again the E-mail Tax is back!” […]
September 25th, 2007 at 8:54 pm
You’ve really helped me along the course of my Micro Economics class. ^__^ Thanks Molly
October 26th, 2007 at 10:53 am
When I think of internet taxing the first thing that comes to mind is, “More money out of my pocket”. Its hard for us to get past this, but the virtual world has grown tremendously since the Internet Tax Freedom Act was put into place. There was a reason for the time limit on that act, and that is due to the fact that we needed to allow for cyberspace to mature before taxing. Now we have a giant that is stable and capable of being taxed and still grow and prosper day after day.
I say set a flat tax rate! Something that will provide our government with more funding, and still allow revenues to rise, which in return is going to decrease inflation, provide U.S. citizens with more benefits, and possibly bring us just a smidgen out of debt!
Its hard to say where this extra funding will go, our strongest economists do exist in the government! Even if these tax dollars go towards the war in Iraq, then that means less debt, less inflation, no recession!
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January 12th, 2008 at 11:26 am
I dont believe anyone should have to pay taxes online for anything.
January 29th, 2008 at 1:07 pm
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