molly.com
Saturday 18 December 2004
web design world cool-down
THINKING OVER MY experiences at Web Design World 2004 in Boston last week, I’m compelled to write about some of the hot issues and areas of concern I see for the contemporary web designer.
First, it’s important to note that there was something different in the air at this event. The turnout was very good, which means companies and organizations are paying for education and training again - something we’ve not seen much of in the past few years as belts have tightened - if a company has kept its pants at all!
As a regular speaker at conferences, I could sense the shift in mood. People seemed more happy with their jobs, more secure in them, and genuinely interested in improving not just the bottom line but their knowledge and process, too. Add to that a small but very select group of speakers, and the show really was the best example of a general (rather than a specialty niche) web design conference I’ve seen in years.
That said, I did notice some issues that surprised me. While people were overall quite well aware of the idea of web standards and are concerned with best practices, many folks seem overwhelmed with misinformation or confusion about details. There are also concepts I suspect that web standards evangelists, in our zeal to spread the good word, have inaccurately introduced into the mainstream without clear enough follow-through.
Concerns with Terminology
Most of my colleagues will agree that I’m a nomenclature freak. If I don’t know the correct term for something, I usually dig until I find it. A natural interest for a writer, I suppose. But I’ve found an ongoing problem with terminology: People do not refer to syntax in proper terms, or they mix up corollary terms. This gets in the way of effective communication, which is always an essential part of good project management. Here are some of the common problems I ran into:
- structure versus semantics. In our efforts to promote “clean” HTML and XHTML, we often refer to structure, using it as a broad stroke to define logical markup. But structure relates specifically to structural elements in a document, whereas semantic markup refers to the meaning of an element in relation to its content. A
DOCTYPEdeclaration is structural, whereas using anh1element to mark up the most important header on the page is semantic. - elements and tags. This is one that continues to drive me batty because it seems we should know this already. An element refers to the whole potato: Tag(s) plus any contained content. A tag refers to the literal tags within the element. An important distinction! A tag is part of an element, but an element is not part of a tag.
- attributes and properties. This confusion certainly stems out of the fact that attributes, which are used to modify elements in HTML and XHTML, are a conceptual corollary to properties, which are used to modify selectors in CSS. They both serve a similar purpose, but the terminology is distinct. Just remember that in markup it’s attribute, in CSS it’s property.
- Dammit, it’s not an “alt tag”. I still can’t get over the fact we continue to say this! Talk about a pet peeve of mine. There is no such thing as an
altelement, no such thing as analttag. What we’ve got is analtattribute. If you’ve just spent too many years saying “alt tag” and can’t seem to break the rhythm, try saying “alt text” instead. It’s simply more accurate.
Conceptual Concerns
Another area some messages are apparently unclear is within concepts. Here are a few that keep rearing their ugly heads:
- Tables are evil. The message we’ve been working to express isn’t that tables are out and out bad, yet this is the message that some people are walking away with. The message we want to send is that table-based layouts are problematic - the biggest hack in HTML history - and we want to get away from them as a layout tool. But tables themselves are extremely useful for marking up tabular data appropriately, and the two issues are quite separate. Yet, the idea that tables are just plain wrong seems to be a common thought among many designers who, in most cases, feel like bad web designers when they use them for any reason at all.
- Separation rather than integration. The idea is to keep presentation and structural components on separate layers, with CSS handling presentation, and HTML or XHTML providing the structure and semantically marked up content. We needed to talk in terms of separation in order to get the idea across, but now that we’re actually building sites from the ground-up with CSS, it becomes quite clear that the two aren’t separated at all, rather, they are integrated. Of course, I’m taking a line from Ethan here and pimpin’ my own Kool-Aid, because this was the thesis of our “The Marriage of Presentation and Structure” session. Check it out (with audio or just the slides) to get a better idea of what we’re really pimpin’ in this case.
- CSS: Still not ready for prime time. This is the scariest concern of all! I continue to meet people who, after attending presentation upon presentation about using CSS effectively even in transitional design situations, still believe that CSS is not a currently viable technology. Where is this misinformation coming from, and how can we effectively address it? I’m really unsure, but it might have something to do with the next misconception . . .
- IE is all bad. While I’d like everyone to be using a contemporary browser with rich support for CSS, I’d also like the world to sing in perfect harmony. I actually had someone ask me if the reason CSS was so difficult to work with was because it was unsupported in IE 6.0! And, I hear time and again that people think web standards evangelists at large hate IE. While that might be somewhat true, it’s not that we’re saying you can’t use CSS because of problems in IE. Rather, we’re pointing out real facts: IE 6.0 is an outdated browser with incomplete support in areas that matter when you’re trying to author truly sophisticated, contemporary CSS. I have to stick up for IE here and say that while today’s design needs would be greatly enhanced if the browser supported what we’d like it to support, the fact is a well-informed web designer will understand HTML, XHTML, CSS and browser support issues well enough to work in a way that taps into the power of CSS even if the enhancements aren’t possible in IE.
Design Approach
If my last passage sounded a bit harsh, that’s because the reality is that a working web designer in today’s market needs that much information. Professional web design and development is not easy! We all know this, and we also know the learning curve is not only steep, but constant. Here are some areas with approach that are challenging folks:
- People still think in tables. Unless you’re among the fortunate (and growing) group of web designers that have never had to build a web site using tables, it seems that it’s been very difficult for all of us to begin thinking outside of them. Having worked with tables for layout for the majority of my web career, it’s proving to be quite difficult to get past thinking in such restrictive terms. I’m wondering what ideas other folks might have in terms of breaking out of the tabular approach from a mental standpoint. There’s no doubt that when we get past this barrier, and are armed with a fair amount of CSS knowledge, that we can do much more progressive work. I got a real insider’s look at this working on Dave Shea’s and my upcoming book The Zen of CSS Design, because digging through some of the CSS Zen Garden’s most compelling designs really challenged me to look at things in new ways. Maybe this is the sort of exercise we all need - if not to actually create designs for submission - to at least try and reconstruct seemingly complex designs. It really does help. Other ideas, cough ‘em up. I’m sure we can all be enriched by them.
- Continued over-reliance on visual editors. That Dreamweaver and other visual editors can make web design a far easier task on many, many levels is undeniable. However, I’m gonna kick it old school here and maintain a thought I’ve had for years: Without an understanding of the languages with which you work - HTML, XHTML and CSS in this context - you are at a disadvantage and probably missing very important nuances by relying on your software to spit out the code for you. You will do much better having a strong understanding of both the languages and the software with which you work. This way, you are doing the thinking, the decision-making, and not the tool. Don’t let your software think for you - trust me on this one. No software product is strong enough yet to replace solid education in the languages themselves.
- Everyone must have a CMS. The hottest topic these days is about content management and choosing a CMS. What astonished me (but probably shouldn’t have) was how many people think they need a CMS when what they really need is better information architecture, improved editorial workflow, and savvy document management. This is not to say that a good CMS isn’t critical for certain operations, but I am going Jeff Veen’s way when it comes to content management, and that’s that a CMS will likely fail if a good overall strategy is not yet in place. What’s more, with a defined strategy, it either becomes clear that a full-strength CMS might not be necessary at all, or only aspects of a CMS are necessary (such as good source control). Or, you make life easier and less expensive by selecting a CMS that truly meets your strategic requirements. The message here? Don’t believe the hype! Examine your situation because it’s unique, and make decisions carefully before thinking that a CMS will magically solve your problems. Chances are it will quite un-magically add more problems to the mix.
Blogs are Big
One thing that was very encouraging was how many people are interested in blogs and blog software for both personal and professional applications. This is good news for the rising industry of blogs in business (and good news for related conferences, too, such as the upcoming Blog Business Summit). But people have concerns, and very realistic ones at that. Some of the issues touched on included copyright and potential misuse of regularly published content; privacy and safety concerns for those publishing personal blogs; and the growing scourge of comment spam. But overall, blogs are happening, and that’s awesome to this long-time blogger’s way of thinking.
Cooling Down
I just want to be sure my message here is not coming across as a critical one. I’m mostly reflecting on issues that seem to be problematic or challenging in our field, and looking for your insights into how to achieve a better understanding of the terms and concepts we use to discuss and define our work.
There are flaws here, most of them have nothing to do with us as people - after all very few folks have learned how to be web designers because they received formal training in the science and art of the profession. Our jobs and the technologies that define them are complex, and their application is becoming increasingly so. We are challenged to learn constantly, to stretch our abilities and our imaginations in unique ways. In order to be effective, it becomes more and more important for us to find common language, clear up misconceptions, hone in on the nuances that matter, and help each other toward a better, brighter future.
Filed under: standards, web design and development
Posted by: Molly | 3:19 am |
December 18th, 2004 at 5:08 am
Great post! It’s good to see the web design world take interest in best practices.
As someone that had to learn to not use tables for layout, switching to CSS made sense to me. I don’t see how that is a problem to people, it was really easy to grasp and find out why using it for design purposes far exceeded the old table-smorgasbord way.
I too jumped on the CMS bandwagon before I learned about web standards. I used a program called XOOPS, and it made running my site a living nightmare, and I ended up leaving the site because it became more and more difficult to manage it. Was it due to the specific CMS? Possibly, that and like you mentioned, I didn’t have a good strategy going in, and as a tool for the job, using a CMS was overkill. I’ve since found that using standards, regular old Notepad, and a blog software like Wordpress, I can easily and smoothly run a news site, and it has been a joy to do so now.
*Note to self* Don’t mention alt tags in future conversations.
December 18th, 2004 at 5:12 am
I need to read this article again to take it all on board (perhaps this comment is premature for this very reason) but in particular I picked up on the people still think in tables bit and also how you use the Zen Garden to highlight how we might alter our thinking. I always struggle to see how we can be that much more progressive, given that we are still using rectangular boxes for layout, and given the fact that traditional devices for viewing websites are, well, rectangular. I also can’t help but wonder why we do actually need to push for the whole progressive design bit when we (or at least I) are not even done with putting the polish on what we already know, refinement rather than a complete revolution is how I tend to think.
To be very clear, I love the Zen Garden and the exercise of preparing my submission really did make a huge difference to how I think about the separation of presentation and content. From a design point of view however, I can’t help but wonder how many of those more radical/progressive designs would hold up in a real world situation where we don’t know the exact nature of the content from day to day or how we would offer this sort of design to clients who wish to make a certain amount of updates themselves (maybe I should reserve judgment until I have read the book). To back up my case I watched in awe as Design by Fire version 2 progressed and I was also amazed with Jon Hicks’s fluid landscape design not so long back, both designs that I would say were very progressive but ultimately each designer chose, much to my dismay, to take them down and put in place designs, which while still very special, relied on more conservative layout techniques. I think one point here is that until all the browser makers are all locked up in a room, together, and forced to adopt standards across the board, and consistently too! thank you very much, true progress in interface design will be difficult.
Maybe all of the above misses the point entirely (it wouldn’t be the first time) but there are always the constant questions ringing in my head, what exactly is this progress we are trying to make, is it graphic design? Is it usability? and really is it this sort of progressive design movement really necessary this early on in proceedings. Print, after all, has taken hundreds of years to mature into what it is. Maybe we need to slow down the pace a little, step back and take stock of what has been achieved thus far?
I would also like to reserve the right to the use of the alt tag, it makes me sound cool!
December 18th, 2004 at 5:41 am
Hi Molly. Fantastic post!
I have two quick comments about the technology we’re relying on here:
1) The default XHTML structure is semantically inadequate for the needs of many web publishers. When we say that something is a H1, and call it semantically correct, we’re only doing so very loosely. Much of the content that gets placed within H1 tags is not a header in the way that a header was originally intended. To be semantically correct, we would identify each element by what it is, not by what it’s forced to be within the default XHTML structure. As long as we can’t create our own display tags, we’ll be screwed up on this topic. I’d love to know what sort of document the original HTML structure was based upon. An academic paper, perhaps?
2) Tables are much easier to lay out than divs. There, I’ve said it. Note that I’m not talking about consistent rendering here (they are both difficult for that), but simply as a way to conceptually layout content. I’d bet dollars to doughnuts that traditionally-trained graphic designers recognize tables as a way to do grid design, which is what many are familiar with. I think this is why many people still think in tables. Do we have a “grid” element? Nope. Positioning and floating divs is a whole new paradigm for layout, and frankly it’s not that intuitive. I remember having a conversation with you at UI9 about the word “relative”. While all elements are positioned “relative” to something, you can specify positioning as “relative”, “static”, “absolute”, or “fixed”.
The major problem, as I see it, is that web designers need to know about more things than the average bear. For those who make sites soup to nuts we need to know something of visual design, publishing, programming, writing, marketing, and the interplay of each. Putting it that way and looking back at the issues that you’re observing, it’s looks like we’ve come a long way!
December 18th, 2004 at 7:19 am
looks like the prison for minds still has rooms available
December 18th, 2004 at 7:25 am
Wow! Well done William the answer in a sentence! Maybe you would like to tell those of us held captive my our own inferior thinking just how you escaped and maybe some evidence to support?
December 18th, 2004 at 8:25 am
Thanks for your insights, Molly. This is a great overview of the state of web design today, especially standards-based web design.
Coming from the graphic design world, where I use type styles all the time, I had no problem jumping to the idea of CSS for presentation (still learning, though). Ditto divs, which I find so much more flexible than table-based design (though sometimes immensely frustrating). So, I’ve had the oppposite experience from Joshua’s example. I think the problem attracting mainstream designers is due to the fact that designers expect to control the page (read screen) and CSS-based web design is easier if you learn to let go of total control. And, designers love Flash. So, focusing on how to use Flash appropriately (with maximum accessibility), and showing alternatives that are more accessible, will gain more converts than a total distain.
I was also interested to hear your discussion of cms. Made me stop and think about it. What you say makes sense for large companies/organizations. How about small groups/companies? I think extending the blog model to entire sites begins to make sense, because small companies can’t always afford a web editor, and want to make changes without needing to call a web designer/developer all the time.
December 18th, 2004 at 8:56 am
before i offer John what seems like would be a much needed hug, i thought it was pretty obvious that i was referring to Joshua’s comment. anyway, to answer your question, Joshua stated that “XHTML structure is semantically inadequate for the needs of many web publishers…” while i agree that the naming conventions he referred to leave much to be desired, it’s still solved by classing the structure (h1 class=”iwannabuymollyadrink” and the like). “many people still think in tables” and “positioning and floating divs is a whole new paradigm for layout, and frankly it’s not that intuitive” immediately reminded me of exactly one of the points molly was making - not allowing your tools to frame your thought. in other words, i don’t feel that semantics or css as a whole holds us back - it simply points us in the right direction. from there, it’s up to us. i’m not knocking Joshua’s brain patterns, i’m simply comparing metaphors. for me, table-based layout is like being plugged into the matrix.
December 18th, 2004 at 9:24 am
(^_^)// Nice post.
Reading about visual editors sparked this. Is there such a thing as a CSS editor that works with physically separate stylesheets, but that the editor presents them together? Tabs won’t do, because the user still has to switch. I like to organize my stylesheets in different files (i.e. different modules in the presentation layer).
December 18th, 2004 at 10:05 am
I use CSS extensively and I am not sure if its “ready for prime time”. I guess it comes down to your definition of “prime time”.
Everyone I know who does web design had very few problems with learning table-based layout. It is quite simple to learn and for the most part it complelely consistent across browsers. On the other hand, learning CSS for anything but trivial layout can be one of the most painful web design activities known to man (do a google for: “css hack filter”). CSS layout is HARD for most people. I go to the web standards meetups here in Austin and we constantly see people struggling with the concepts of float and positioning. They have read articles online and books and it’s still hard for them, and they do not appear to be of below average intelligence.
Perhaps CSS positioning is conceptually is too difficult for a lot of people. Maybe that’s why we don’t see more of it being done. Table based design caught on quickly and did not need any evangelists or tons of books to explain why it was a great idea.
Don’t get me wrong, I love CSS. The advantages are well known. But until CSS layout gets easier to understand conceptually and is more consistent across browsers I have to say its not “ready for prime time” and is largely relegated to the folks who are movitaved and dedicated enough to be reading pages like this.
Great article!
December 18th, 2004 at 12:23 pm
William, I think you hit upon a very important point: that tools should not frame our thought. Contrary to your comments, though, I believe we actually agree on that point. When I mentioned that people still think in tables, I should have said that I believe many designers still design using grids, and therefore tables may make more sense to them. (they may not, too - I was merely guessing and you get back your doughnuts)
I do know, however, that each and every hack/workaround created for grid-style layouts is evidence that designers mold tools for their own needs. This happened with tables and is happening with divs, too. The float-clearing hacks are examples of this.
So I would disagree with your comment that “CSS is pointing us in the right direction”. As long as we’re hacking floats, forcing our web applications into the DTD of an (academic?) document, thinking in other paradigms like tables, we’re doing just the opposite: we’re pointing CSS in the right direction.
December 18th, 2004 at 3:43 pm
thanks for clarifying your thoughts, Joshua. now i see where you were going. perhaps with older browsers, css is pointing us; with new browsers, we are pointing css?
December 18th, 2004 at 5:40 pm
nice talk molly!
I have learned some interesting things
December 19th, 2004 at 1:35 am
;)
Molly is correct.
December 19th, 2004 at 5:12 am
Web Design World Cool-down
molly.com » web design world cool-down
THINKING OVER MY experiences at
December 19th, 2004 at 10:17 am
Incredible article, Molly.
I have quite a few questions for you but they should probably wait for until and if we ever meet in person. However, I would like to ask you about your comment about tables, “the biggest hack in HTML history”. Why is it considered a hack? Tables were meant to be used as a method to easily represent tabulated data and their function has been modified to suit layout purposes (with inherent problems of course). Is that the hack you speak of or are tables a technical/code hack on the part of HTML?
In addition, I completely agree that web designers (both amateur and otherwise) tend to pick up on the wrong clues about tables, CSS, XHTML and such, but is misconstrued knowledge better than none at all? If a designer considers tables to be the dark side without any exceptions, is she/he better off than someone who uses tables in all their layouts?
December 19th, 2004 at 11:12 am
Nice writings as always… and the best part :
December 19th, 2004 at 1:28 pm
Web Design Misconceptions and Misinformation
Molly Holzschlag has written an exceptional and fascinating post on her perceptions from Web Design World 2004 conference in Boston, web design world cool-down. The great news is that she sees a positive shift happening in overall mood, feelings of job…
December 19th, 2004 at 1:55 pm
I’ve noticed that people that never coded before, and didn’t get into the whole tables for layout method for design, learned CSS quite quickly and easily. For those who grew up using tables for layout, learning CSS is probably a lot more difficult, because you have to throw away old habits, conventions, and philosophy.
I do agree that CSS isn’t ready for primetime, but that’s no fault on CSS, but rather the support, or the lack thereof from Microsoft’s latest browser. If IE6 supported it properly, we’d see adoption of CSS in an easier and faster manner.
December 19th, 2004 at 3:06 pm
blah blah boring same old…
December 19th, 2004 at 10:07 pm
molly.com � web design world cool-down
molly.com - web design world cool-down - Molly describes some common web design misconceptions and pet peeves, among other things.
December 19th, 2004 at 11:52 pm
[…] Hot Pepper Blog Web Design World Cool-Down Here’s an interesting article by Molly Holzschlag on her experiences at Web Design World 2004. As a regula […]
December 19th, 2004 at 11:57 pm
I would consider myself a half-breed of the past-time Photoshop based designers. Tables were extremely useful back then, but they had their many shares of problems. In my personal experience switching to
December 20th, 2004 at 7:15 am
I was listening to the audio of Molly’s and Ethan’s talk on Saturday when I had a Lightbulb Moment. As they mentioned, their talk (and title) was somewhat opposite to current thinking: “Marriage of Structure and Presentation” rather than the “separation of presentation and structure”. They also talked about how many people named classes based on the presentation they provide such as class=”red” and how that will fail down the road when the colour should be changed. What they are recommending is to name classes (and ids) based on function or content such as id=”navbar” or class=”firstparagraph”. This is when I had the Lightbulb Moment because I realized what they were advocating was Semantic CSS which fits well with their talk in that it reverses phrases that are in common use. If only I had a blog, I could discuss this concept of mine.
December 20th, 2004 at 9:22 am
Right on Molly.
I have to add my two cents as this issue has been on my mind for some time. Everyone’s comments are interesting and so CIVIL. How refreshing.
I think we are in a transitional phase during which Visual Designers for the Web (known formally as Web Designers) are starting to “get” that our work isn’t just about technology, or even formal design. There is a sense of a movement beginning; a Social Movement.
“I intended the Web to be a social creation, not just a technological one.” Tim Berners-Lee
He said it and interestingly it seems to be becoming quite clear that the Web is by it’s nature, a social. It’s about people communicating, collaborating, sharing ideas and knowledge- in a manner that is unprecedented. The implications are profound. How will this tool we created, as well as other new technologies, impact those who created it? Big change is happening and it isn’t limited to technology.
My point, finally, is that Web designers will have to understand and integrate “context” into our work; social, as well as cultural, political, as so on. I am not suggesting we all become activists trying to change the world or that we become academics.
We love are work. It can only improve if we expand, in little steps, our thinking, skills and knowledge to include a “bigger picture.” One that incorporates other disciplines beyond our own (which is rather segmented into feuding camps currently).
Why? Well, the reasons are both inspiring and essential. I believe if we don’t, we could end up as a maintenance crew for this superhighway, when we should be up top having a say and influencing where the road leads. This is essential as the role of the “Web Designer” is changing rapidly. We have a lot of responsibility and pressure, yet not enough credit. As the Web grows and evolves, we are the ones holding it together; we weave the Web (or in non pretentious speak, we design and built Web sites). We have to develop and/or keep up with the technologies that are fueling a rapidly changing and growing medium; one that is changing how we live in everyway.
On the positive, inspirational side, we are important, needed; in fact, we are crucial to this profound movement. Many people, mostly from other disciplines, are talking and writing about this. I think it is exciting to explore the broader implications of our work. It will expand our creative arsenals and I hope lead to more collaboration within our profession. Thank you again.
December 20th, 2004 at 11:11 am
links for 2004-12-20
Bi-torrent - Your Torrents Site. (categories: bittorrent) molly.com: web design world cool-down (categories: webdesign) What Do Women Really Want? (categories: reading)…
December 20th, 2004 at 12:10 pm
Thank you Molly for pointing out that it’s ALT TEXT not an ALT TAG. Perhaps it’s hair-splitting, but alt-tags are so annoying!
December 20th, 2004 at 2:11 pm
[…] miss in the community. Wel, not amiss exactly, but maybe absent. Molly E. Holzschlag has reported back from Web Design World 2004 on how well the conference went but notes ho […]
December 20th, 2004 at 2:17 pm
Web standards, usability, and accessibility
Web standards and the terms that go with it are unknown to too many people. This post is an effort to explain how and why we need to be designing better web sites.
December 20th, 2004 at 2:40 pm
I’m confused and bemused by some of the ‘CSS not ready for primetime’ comments. How on earth can CSS be considered too difficult to impliment or be too lacking in browser support when we have sites like sprint, chevy, espn, yahoo, disneystore, wwf etc etc etc all converting to CSS layouts recently? It seems inconceivable that any serious web designer in 2004 could miss all the buzz around these launches. How very odd.
December 20th, 2004 at 2:55 pm
Jim Amos, I think most of us want even the not-so-serious web designers to be using web standards, as well. I’ve been having a conversation with Peter Kirby, for example, and while he says he is “capable with HTML, CSS, etc.”, he also asked me, “what do you mean about ‘web standards’?”
December 20th, 2004 at 4:11 pm
Amen to that. I bit the bullet myself this summer when I switched from Dreamweaver to BBEdit and sat down and took the time to actually learn XHTML and CSS. It took me two months to get it right but I finally feel I know what I’m doing.
Bottom line: learn the concepts, not the software.
December 20th, 2004 at 8:13 pm
[…] Monday, December 20, 2004 Web Design Concerns Molly Holzschlag has a good post about some issues we web designers face on a constant basis. Of […]
December 21st, 2004 at 12:46 am
Hi Molly,
Thanks for the recap. I can never seem to make it to these so I’ve always got to catch up via you savvy bloggers.
The only thing I really have a point to make is about tables vs. CSS. I still don’t understand why anyone would want to design an entire site in tables, I don’t hate them, but I completely agree that they’re best kept to tabular data. I see people time & time again think that it’s okay to lay out a blog in a table because it looks like a bunch of rectangular blocks! I think we’ve got to help people realize that it’s really just information, and information can come in any size that you want as long as you know how to present it well.
I started making (very bad) frames & table-based websites in 1997, but when I finally began really researching and becoming extremely serious about this website business, and about actually trying to start a deisgn company with my fiancee, who’s a computer programming guru, I knew that I needed to really get down to business, and somehow, through a random series of events, I discovered all of this. And ever since then, I’ve made it a point to follow the guidelines. It took me awhile to get my brain thinking out of the box, but using tables (as layout) is one of those things I will never do again.
As far as the CSS not being ready for primetime, I think this is where the Microsoft & IE hatred comes in from designers. If the world’s major browser (we hate to admit that probably 90% of the world is still using IE, but it’s true) would simply support efficient web programming, then all would be gravy & everyone would run to it. Unfortunately, that hasn’t happened yet, and so we’re stuck hacking away at our CSS to make it work for everyone. Sigh. I guess them’s the breaks!
-Meredith.
December 21st, 2004 at 9:07 am
Hey, Molly, thanks for the referral to the conference website. Looks like one worth attendng next year. I was sorry to see the pics of 6 men and 1 woman on the front page, though, when they apparently had a picture of you they could have used but chose to display pal Ethan instead (nothing against Ethan, but you know?) Was there a valid reason for their doing that, like not having a pic of you beforehand?
December 21st, 2004 at 12:05 pm
yes Molly’s,
See this web site: www.sionpasion.ch created with CMS 1Work
December 21st, 2004 at 1:53 pm
[…] dings, and directions of web developers (and web developer ideology) today, take a look at this great summary/corrective over at Molly’s. […]
December 21st, 2004 at 2:02 pm
When it comes right down to it; the fact is most clients don’t have a clue, most graphic designers don’t have a clue, most design firms/agencies don’t have a clue and very mostly the end users have no idea what battles are raging in are geek world. So are we wasting our time? Or is all this made up smantics worth are time? I think so but many do not. I believe we are apart of a web revolution but we are geeks and we live in a digital world.
So why do we (I) do it? Because it’s exciting. It’s exciting to see this media being reinvented over and over almost everyday. I like what williams said on post #4,
December 21st, 2004 at 8:06 pm
[…] d in this order, and then apply a stylesheet that does all of the presentation. Molly on conformance to standards.
Comments […]
December 21st, 2004 at 8:16 pm
The thing that makes CSS “not ready for primetime” (for me, at least) is the variations in implementation from browser to browser. IE may not conform to the norm, but since MS is still the “800 pound gorilla,” we have to deal with IE, like it or not. Writing code that works with IE and still plays nice with the so-called “compliant” browsers adds so much time to the development cycle that I still can’t justify it to my boss.
I am a “one man band” in my company — I code the company websites, run e-commerce operations, supervise the shipping clerk and answer the phone (take orders/offer expert advice/hold customers’ hands while they make up their minds). Therefore, the time I have for the “development cycle” is ridiculously small. My boss wants what he wants now, not a week (or two) from now while I hack the CSS and make sure everything works (or at least degrades gracefully) in all browsers. So, for now, I am stuck coding tables — they are fast and work consistently cross-browser.
I’m still hoping the day of “grand convergence” will come when CSS will be consistently implemented in all browsers and writing floats, positioning and the box model will become as easy as writing a table layout. Until then, I’m stuck in the 1990s, like it or not.
December 21st, 2004 at 10:12 pm
The biggest problem with CMS, in my opinion, is that it should not be an “out of the box” solution. Perhaps some sites can use this model - most likely they are building their website based upon what features are available through the CMS I might add. Rather, a CMS is a tool that should be customized for the website at hand.
I have learned the hard way while building CMS’s for clients… I used to either try building the CMS alongside development of the website or I would use some out of the box solution up front to save myself some time. Too many times I ran into road blocks.
These days, in my business, we first build out a site in pure CSS/HTML/whatever – get this semi-finished product approved by the client – and then go through and build out modules and functions of the CMS where necessary. It saves us time in the long run and also provides for cleaner, more organized code in my experience.
The point I have tried to deliver with this post is that CMS should be a second-phase approach for the average website.
December 22nd, 2004 at 3:15 am
As always Molly, your writing is clear and succinct. I believe that unless people move forward, tomorrow they will be exactly where they are today; and the web will move inexorably onwards, with them or without them.
The belief that CSS is “not ready for primetime” is so off the wall. A web developer who does not fully understand (X)HTML and CSS and the interaction of the two within a page structure, will find life difficult and restrictive. My experience shows me that you must fully understand the languages you use, understand that the correct semantics and structure helps you, and know how the current crop of browsers and devices used for display react when presented with your page; and when you do understand all of this, the development time and maintenance costs of a site are reduced, even if using a CMS (though taking on board other comments).
Maybe it is the wrong place for it, but I found no mention of accessibility. This is so important, and understanding accessibility issues really helps you define where you are going with a design. This is not as restrictive as it sounds, it just means that the mindset has to move outwards; you have to use your imagination and see things from a different perspective.
Oh, and beware of some so called hacks, these tend to come back and bite you later. It is relatively easy to write good code, fully accessible, without tables, without hacks. Please take the time and try.
December 22nd, 2004 at 9:33 am
Alan, you misunderstand me. I didn’t say I don’t know XHTML and CSS. I have written tableless layouts, and I prefer them to tables, because I am a fanatic about clean code. My point is that in my main gig, my miniscule development schedule and lack of support staff (I’m it!) means I have to resort to the bag of tricks that gets the job done fastest. Right now, that’s still tables for most (not all) projects. I’m also encumbered by ecommerce software that is mired in tables (osCommerce). osC is utterly table laden, so I’m stuck with it. Maybe someday someone with time and resources will write a standards-compliant template system for osC, but until then, I’m stuck.
December 22nd, 2004 at 3:04 pm
Chris, my comments were not directed at you at all, they were based on Molly’s article. Just coincidence that my comment followed yours. I was also a one man band, but I had a break that allowed me to get to grips with CSS - no job.
Of course, what you say about software that outputs table laden HTML means that Molly still has a lot of evangelisising(?) to do. Until these companies change, your work will be all the more difficult.
December 22nd, 2004 at 7:56 pm
[…] hat the business world is ready for xHTML/CSS design. Here are some of thier quotes from Molly’s article I mentioned below in a earlier post. The thing that makes CSS […]
December 23rd, 2004 at 12:57 am
Thanks for the great article. I believe you’re right regarding the CMS issues, but we are currently finishing off a hosted XHTML/CSS CMS solution, called azapi CMS. I look forward to your comments regarding the CMS.
December 23rd, 2004 at 7:46 am
Software That Thinks?
Heaven forbid! It’d get it wrong. Anyway, how does it know?
Web Design World Cool Down contains a summary of what went on at (unsurprisingly
) Web Design World 2004. It makes interesting reading (for someone who did not attend). Nice…
December 23rd, 2004 at 1:40 pm
Great article, but IE6 is all bad. Not due to it’s CSS short comings, but because it significantly compromises the security of your WIndows computer. I can build a site that looks good and functions well in IE just as good as the next guy, but it’s not going to do you much good if your computer is being remotely controlled by the Al Queda boys.
Bravo on your “The Marriage of Presentation and Structure!”
December 23rd, 2004 at 11:38 pm
Bad tables, bad! Just kidding
December 24th, 2004 at 3:32 am
CSS is ready for primetime… but that doesn’t mean that it lacks a lot of features. However, given that even simple features like the box model aren’t correctly implemented by all, things such as alpha, :before and :after seem like pipe dreams.
Furthermore, there are much more basic issues to be taclked, IMHO, such as the lack of control over vertical alignment (say I want text aligned to the baseline of a block element, is this possible? If so, it’s not as easy as vertical-align: baseline or bottom).
December 24th, 2004 at 3:33 am
One more thing I’d like to see in CSS is the ability to treat borders as 8 separare components: top, right, bottom, top and the four corners! But that’s just a little insignificant aside!
December 24th, 2004 at 3:35 am
One last thing: one the layout front, perhaps CSS needs to take notice of layout in Java Swing, which is designed for situations where the page is flexible and the content not necessarily known in advance, as well as print, where the editor has full control and errors caused by unusual content are easily tweaked before print-time.
December 25th, 2004 at 2:56 am
I particularly agree about the CMS issue. It amazes me the client will not consider the quality of the content they’ll update, who will edit it, what about photography etc and so forth. My issue is that given a tight budget, no real idea of the technologies and the medium, and limited time its far too easy to turn a half decent CMS into a shoddy hack site. Simply by offering a CMS without then explaining the down sides and such can be an irresponsible mix. When a designer tells a client ‘Free updating of your content with a CMS’ to sell CMS solutions it is easy, especially for small business, to fall into the trap. Indeed CMS are magic in some situations but there are designers out there who say ‘what you need is a CMS’ as a selling point over the phone at initial contact. If this is comment spam I apologise but its my 2 cents….
December 26th, 2004 at 11:56 pm
Really nice work, it would be very helpful for people try to build useful design in competitive market.
kashyap
December 27th, 2004 at 12:53 pm
Good Golly Miss Molly
Molly E. Holzschlag treats us with her general thoughts and astute observations surounding her time at Web Design World 2004, a conference that I should have attended. She presented “The Marriage of Presentation and Structure” with Ethan Marcotte. I …
December 28th, 2004 at 4:15 am
I simply wanted to add my own two cents:
You are all misinformed and ignorant.
Thank you.
December 29th, 2004 at 2:51 pm
Hey, Tadpole, what a conversation stopper. Step up with proof.
December 30th, 2004 at 1:02 pm
The “alt tag”?
I humbly suggest we all call it the ALTRIBUTE.
January 5th, 2005 at 8:13 am
Very perceptive post Molly. I couldn’t agree more.
While I’m personally not a huge fan of IE (Safari is my weapon of choice) people should remember that IE5 Mac was one of the first “Standards Compliant” browsers of it’s time. IE has become the “Web Standards” whipping boy and I often see people unfairly blaming IE for problems caused by poor coding or misunderstandings of the specs.
Tables were never intended for layout, but we’re industrious creatures and soon started using them in new and creative ways. I personally prefer to use CSS layout for all the obvious reasons such as file size, flexibility etc not because it’s a perversion of their original use. I wonder in a few years time if we’ll see a backlash in the use of floated layouts because floats were never intended to be a “layout” tool?
January 9th, 2005 at 1:41 am
[…] ay I while wondering the blogosphere I ran into a link from Brainstorms&Raves to this article over at
January 18th, 2005 at 7:41 pm
Web Design World Cool-down
molly.com » web design world cool-down
THINKING OVER MY experiences at
January 18th, 2005 at 9:20 pm
Web Design World Cool-down
molly.com » web design world cool-down
THINKING OVER MY experiences at
January 25th, 2005 at 1:33 am
I go through your article, really nice article about standards-based web design, It would be very helpful for people try to make useful design in competitive market.
January 25th, 2005 at 2:09 am
I read your article, really nice article about standards-based web design, It would be very helpful for people try to make useful design in competitive market.
February 28th, 2005 at 10:14 am
Hi Molly,
Thanks for such an insightful article on web standards. I have only recently discovered the powerful way of designing websites through CSS and Google and Yahoo just love my sites done in CSS, it seems. So, I can safely say that using web standards pays off in ways more than one. My website designing firm, Creativatorz, is a relatively new but quite popular web design & development company in India due to the compelling designs, which otherwise would not have been possible had it not been for CSS. I am confident that the cross browser issues will be resolved soon and it will become more and more prevalent among web designers.
March 19th, 2005 at 6:48 am
I was so glad to hear somone say this. There are situations where one can get separation anxiety and I, for one, am getting fed up with the racking guilt of not knowing how to handle such situations.
Great article!
March 31st, 2005 at 1:21 pm
Stimulant Designs lies about Client Portfolio
Stimulant Designs, a “web hosting and web design” company in southern California, appears to lie about their client reference list. Illicodesign.com, owned and operated by Illico Design LLC is listed as one of their Portfolio Customers They say: >> B…
April 11th, 2005 at 4:57 pm
hi Molly
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June 20th, 2005 at 5:52 am
[…] ented a talk entitled The Marriage of Presentation and Structure at Web Design World 2004 (Molly’s Summary). In this presentation, they discussed the reversal […]
July 23rd, 2005 at 2:36 pm
I’ve just come accross nice link. Looks like good CMS for CSSZenFolks
Elixon CMS
According to info they provide it is all about CSS… and web design is going all about CSS too, right?
tom
October 17th, 2005 at 9:04 pm
HI Mollly, I see you’re writing a lot, I don’t write or read a lot , but will get thru your material eventually. Thanks for the great resources.
Mike
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December 20th, 2005 at 6:32 pm
[…] , 2004 at 9:32 am · Filed under 简单生活 web design world cool-down http://www.molly.com/2004/12/18/web-design-world-cool-down/ 关于：这是Molly的一篇文章，偶自己看了以后觉的对于webdesigner真的 […]
December 22nd, 2005 at 5:54 am
I read your article and I’m very suprised.You gave me a lot of interesting and imporatant information.
January 1st, 2006 at 1:46 pm
[…] Web design world cool-down […]
January 18th, 2006 at 1:47 am
I believe that nowadays the people is not conscious of the importance that has the design web, with regard to the web, neither that publicity is going to suppose him more and sales nevertheless, little by little the people goes being conscious of it, therefore businesses as ours goes growing http://www.abartek.com/optimizacion-web.html little by little I Think that the design and development web have to be based on standards. I think that one must respect the style and enmaquetation of the web, is a matter of giving the functionality that require the web as for example the viewing of them you put on file stored in database etc..
February 24th, 2006 at 10:57 pm
Dear Molly,
Your article is so knowledge full for professional. I am web consultant in New Delhi.Gonna Solutions is leading web development company.
March 15th, 2006 at 2:20 pm
[…] Read about the web design world cool-down at molly.com […]
April 21st, 2006 at 5:21 am
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April 25th, 2006 at 2:47 am
[…] 对于在中文世界的web standards的传道者来说，最困难的莫过于一些术语的翻译。Molly的web design world cool-down中就有相关术语误用的问题。还好，对于英文用户来说，由于是meta language（元语言）吧，他们可以十分迅速地分辨、了解以及投入使用，只要有高人那么一指点。中文用户就十分不幸了，历经传道者的层层翻译，在翻译中又有所曲解，初学者不像经验老到的我们，往往会对于一些术语莫名其妙。 […]
May 1st, 2006 at 11:54 pm
This is very nice post.thanks
May 15th, 2006 at 7:11 am
Dear Molly,
thank you, very informative. Keep up the good work.
Sincerely,
Krzysztof
June 8th, 2006 at 9:35 am
Heh Molly,
nice work, as Krzysztof say, very informative. I must bookmark your site for future. Thanks Molly!
June 30th, 2006 at 11:20 am
What a great post.I don’t always visit as often as i would like,but with a week’s vacation just starting i’ll start delving into all the resources you provide.Thanks!
July 20th, 2006 at 1:31 am
must say good article..Keep up the good work!!
August 10th, 2006 at 6:54 am
CSS I beleive has hit prime time just now. Althought this is an era of new specifications, the new and upcoming standards will beimplemented and cross-platform and browser compatibility issues will plague us for ever!
xweb
Thanks for the great articles.
November 4th, 2006 at 7:03 pm
Buon luogo, congratulazioni, il mio amico!
November 9th, 2006 at 2:45 pm
Excellent article you obviously know the indusrty well. Thank you for sharing the information.
December 13th, 2006 at 3:02 am
Hi,this is raj from encodersExcellent article you obviously know the indusrty well. Thank you for sharing the information.Catch you next time.
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December 13th, 2006 at 10:03 am
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February 4th, 2007 at 1:22 am
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February 8th, 2007 at 10:10 pm
Cool
February 22nd, 2007 at 2:43 pm
Good Article. Thanks
March 18th, 2007 at 8:39 am
a good positive page to help SEO efforts! cheers!
March 18th, 2007 at 8:40 am
great
March 18th, 2007 at 8:41 am
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April 6th, 2007 at 4:12 am
Hi Molly,
really nice article about standards-based web design.
Greats Edith
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April 17th, 2007 at 6:59 pm
[…] Molly Holzschlag of Molly.com has some excellent thoughts on the current issues of web design now that she’s returned from Web Design World 2004 in Boston. Given the money and time, I would’ve loved to attend this conference. I’ll just have to wait for the next go-round. In the meantime I’ve caught some of the seminars online in their archive. […]
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May 4th, 2007 at 9:12 am
I believe in India, there are many ways to go. Small Businesses in are already started to show interest in having company website. But quality is really DANGEROUS. People here must come out of poorly coded and outdated look websites. Unfortunately anyone can create HTML pages after learning HTML codes in a week. Current trend moving towards CSS and XHTML websites, some of them using AJAX and WEB 2.0 techniques.
I believe, web designing and programming must be properly done by experienced firms and not by individual.
Whey will Indian business prefer quality web presence instead of cheap.
Indian websites have many ways to go…
Sunita Rao,
www.igloo360.com
May 8th, 2007 at 1:31 am
Thanks for this really nice article , Molly. This is a great overview of the state of web design today, especially standards-based web design.
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July 11th, 2007 at 12:06 pm
I simply wanted to add my own two cents:
You are all misinformed and ignorant.
Thank you all.
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September 13th, 2007 at 5:22 am
Hello blogger! I was surfing the internet Thursday afternoon during my break, and found your blog by searching MSN for landscape designers. This is a topic I have great interest in, and follow it closely. I liked your insight on web design world cool-down, and it made for good reading. Keep up the good work…
September 28th, 2007 at 7:50 am
Really nice work, it would be very helpful for people try to build useful design in competitive market.
October 31st, 2007 at 9:32 pm
Developing this method on MS word plz
Use Header for writing VU BOOK INVOICE
Use clip arts to add three Bullets (circles visible at top)
Use Text Box to write the name Virtual University with Size 28 and Font Style Arial. Text should be center aligned in the text box.
Size of Book Invoice Text should be 14 (text under text box)
Draw a table with given fields. The colors should be according to the screen shot.
Draw another table giving details of invoice with fields in screen shot. First Row of the table should be aligned centered with given background color Green and font color White. The text in the lower rows should also be center aligned with Font 12.
Write Remittance Bolded and Underlined.
Use Bullets with details as given in screen shot
At the end of the page give Complete Address along with web and email Addresses as given in the screen shot.
Do follow the given below sample in screen shot.
December 30th, 2007 at 6:00 am
The real issues in todays web era where we are trying to keep happy google and other search engines. Just ask 10 designers about the usability of css and pat reply will come. to more search engine friendly and less heavier pages.
Why every web designers are foregetting their web user experience. The best thing in this world so simple that no one really bothered about the technology behind.
Why we are becoming moron day by day, why there is no social commitment we are showing. Have we ever thought about websites which are really popular like google, youtube, linked in. Do the users of there websites are really bothered what kind of css you have used. whether you are w3c complaint or not.
Instead of just getting into rat race why we are not simply care about user experience, disable people’s reach to web and how to make web more informative and less complicated.
Have any real users of ever asked or even though about robots and crawlers. no, then why we are really bothered about stuffs which can be slowly and gradually learnt.
January 16th, 2008 at 2:10 am
Nice article thanks to all.
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March 30th, 2008 at 6:11 am
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April 1st, 2008 at 4:32 pm
Nice writings as always…
April 2nd, 2008 at 2:03 am
Dear Author,
I have gone through the article…..this is a nice effort from you . All the points covered are the ones taking care the aspects of designing. Also I would recommend if you could provide more points to the designers considering SEO. At last that was a nice effort..keep it up..
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April 7th, 2008 at 1:59 am
it is easy to find it, i think u just search on google or yahoo
April 8th, 2008 at 5:59 am
but, i think it is another thing which you have
April 8th, 2008 at 3:28 pm
i like it
April 8th, 2008 at 8:53 pm
interesting, thanks
April 9th, 2008 at 6:11 am
do you know everything about css?
April 9th, 2008 at 1:50 pm
how can i find everything about css?
April 10th, 2008 at 4:46 am
what do you want to learn about css? we can help easily
April 11th, 2008 at 8:05 am
i want learn too, i want start at the beginning of css
April 11th, 2008 at 2:51 pm
it is good t see u
April 21st, 2008 at 6:14 pm
thats the matter i want to learn
April 21st, 2008 at 6:33 pm
Thanks,very nice blog.
April 21st, 2008 at 6:33 pm
Nice Job.
April 21st, 2008 at 10:23 pm
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April 30th, 2008 at 10:40 am
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May 10th, 2008 at 2:45 pm
Very nice article molly. Very informative. Thanks.
May 10th, 2008 at 2:49 pm
IE may be outdated but still a lot of people use it, so how can that be ignored and use CSS and no tables.