molly.com
Tuesday 14 September 2004
paranoid or private?
PARANOID OR PRIVATE? Give me a little reality check here, friends.
There’s a shopping center not far from where I live that I’ve frequented for many years. It has a coffee house, market, pharmacy, bookstore and postal service – all of which I use regularly.
A few weeks ago I met a friend for coffee there, and we noticed a security guard in the parking lot taking down the license plates of cars. I said something to my friend because this activity struck me as odd.
Today, I went to pick up a prescription and some mail, and as I was leaving my car, the same security guard came up and started writing down my car’s license plate. I asked him what he was doing and why. He explained that his bosses have asked him to write down license plate numbers in the parking lot to “keep track” of how long cars were parking in a spot.
I went into the mail service and asked the owner there if he knew what was going on. He mentioned that there was some dispute between businesses about the use of the parking spaces.
Now, I need some help here. I find this to be definitely on the edge in terms of privacy. I am not by nature a conspiracy freak, but I do not think that any commercial business where I am a guest, lawfully using the premises, has a right to take down my vehicle’s information each time I visit. It smacks of a civil liberties issue – because if this is acceptable, what’s next? Will I have to show my social security number to the security guard? As I enter the business? Provide ID just to make a purchase?
In expressing my concern to the owner of the business I frequent, I got a bizarre stare from the guy, who apparently thought I was some kind of freak of a woman for having a problem with my comings and goings on the premises of his business tracked. He said “Why are you concerned, you’re not doing anything wrong.”
I responded with a “Sir, that’s precisely why I am concerned. I’m lawfully using the premises. If I were doing something problematic or illegal, then it’s an issue for security and the police. But until that time, am I not afforded a certain right to respect and confidence that I can shop without my movements being observed?”
Am I just being paranoid, or is my concern a legitimate one?
Filed under: policies
Posted by: Molly | 12:53 | Comments (34)
par·a·noi·a n.
1. A psychotic disorder characterized by delusions of persecution with or without grandeur, often strenuously defended with apparent logic and reason.
2. Extreme, irrational distrust of others.
Doesn’t sound like the Molly we all know and love. If this happened to me I would have a serious problem with it as well.
I’d have done some chain-yanking, too. That’s not paranoia.
To quote Shaggy, lately mall security has become “über-creepy”. I am constantly being followed through the parking lot by these people with their flashing yellow or blue lights. They don’t seem to understand that when you flash lights at people, it is to make them pull over. You don’t just flash them all night. More importantly, by the looks of the security guards, I fear them stealing my car more than any young punk. Sometimes I wonder if they just give a uniform to the same homeless people who stand out on the medians, because they look the same.
I don’t want those guys running around with my licenee plate number. I’m behind you 100%, dial back the shopping center security drones.
You may not like it, but I don’t think that writing down your license plate number is an invasion of privacy. It is prominently displayed in public view.
Now, if they have access to a database where they can look up your dmv records or other personal information based on your plate number, that is another story.
i’m always more concerned about all the “loyalty scheme card” type things each shop tries to flog me. yes, please, i’d like you to give me a uniquely identifying card, tied in at every purchase with my debit card details as well, so you can profile my shopping habits and in future send me special offers and stuff. and yes, i also want to have this psychological bond whereby i refuse to shop in any of your competitors’ shops for fear of “not getting my points”…
Tim does have a point, as I think about it more. [Goes the same for taking photography, ya know.]
As for how you fight this, you politely tell the shop owner that you won’t shopt there anymore if it really needles you that much. [It could. Maybe it should. That's a personal decision.]
Provided they are only using that data in connection with your use of the parking facility, I guess they’re within their rights. Presumably the length of stay is a condition of use, and it’s only fair that they take reasonable steps to enforce that (or at least detect abuse). If this is the case, the data should be discarded at the end of each day (no return within x hours, etc). Dumb way of doing it, but I guess that’s their choice.
On the other hand they might be using that data for statistical analysis. It could be very useful to them to record the frequency with which customers use their parking. The question is, is that something to be worried about? At work (design agency) we keep all sorts of information about how and when our clients use our services. We analyse that data and act on the results of the analysis. It helps us to make sure we’re providing a good service. I’m not sure that what the parking people are doing is a million miles away from that.
No answers, just more questions
Patrick: I use a loyalty card when shopping at my local supermarket. They have a self-scan system too, so I guess the supermarket knows not only what I buy and when, but also the order in which I traverse their store and (more or less) how long I spend in each section. They can probably tie my purchases to the location of the items at the time of purchase and tell whether I tended to buy from end-isles, top shelves, special displays or whatever. They probably know about how much toilet paper our household gets through, and whether I squeeze a more-than or less-than average amount of toothpaste onto my brush.
Do you know what? It doesn’t bother me one bit. That information is not useful to me to guard and it poses no threat to me for them to have it. There’s an outside chance that the information will enable the supermarket to sell better to me – and that’s no problem either. I know that giving it over enables me to use the self-scan system as I shop, which saves me a lot of time, and is kinda fun.
It’s right to be cautious about the information you give away and that others collect. There’s a lot of stuff that you need to be wary about. There’s also a lot of stuff that doesn’t matter at all. If you can identify the latter readily, it helps to keep the blood pressure low
This isn’t a debate over their legal rights. Legally your license is on public display. They can write it down. Ethics are different from laws. It is disturbing to have someone follow you around and take notes about your movements. That, essentially, is what is happening here.
Technically, you don’t own the license plate number, or even the plate in most places. It is perfectly legal for anyone to copy it anywhere.
And think of it this way — more people hired to do stupid things is good for the economy.
Can they put this into a database? Sure — a car with this license plate was in this mall such and such a day. No less info recorded than the fact that your cc card was used at specific places in that same mall.
I don’t think it hurts to ask, though. And you’re too decent to be paranoid, Molly.
Now me — I took photos of one of my favorite pictorial bridges today, and guess who got questioned by the state patrol?
There’s an issue of voluntary versus involuntary, too. The “loyalty” cards that Drew and Patrick mention are prevalent in the US as well. But we as consumers do not have to use them – although using it does get us discounted pricing. Still, it’s voluntary. And, as John points out – my issue is not with the legal right for my license plate to be noted down, but the ethical concern about someone noting my movements.
I notice almost everyone who has answered so far is male. I wonder if this also bothers me on some visceral level because it feels very dangerous to me to have some man in a security officer’s uniform following me. I can buy a security uniform, so can anyone.
I willingly and voluntarily submit to screening checks on an almost weekly basis because I travel so much. In that instance, I’m not disturbed in the least by routine screenings at airports, and readily submit to them in order to protect myself and all residents of and visitors to this nation.
However, I do not feel that going to shop in my local grocery store warrants tracking of my movements. This is not an issue of security, or even statistical accounting. There is some internal dispute going on about the use of the parking lot. If there’s a time-limit on the spaces, that should be clearly marked – there is no time limit – and I never stay there beyond a few minutes my own self. The problem seems to be internal – and I remain steadfast in my belief that I as a well behaved customer should be treated with more respect. My god, I wasn’t even out of my car before this guy was taking down my information!
There are lines between ethics, law, and civil liberties and I am deeply concerned about where we draw those lines, especially in a nation that was built (at least ideologically) on the premise that civil liberties are paramount.
Molly – I think the next time you spot a man in uniform following you about, you should turn around, rub your hands together and say:- “Ah, good. I’ve be expecting you”.
.. and watch them freak out
I definitely come down on the side of Molly telling the business owner that she will not be back because she feels uncomfortable about events taking place in the parking lot. It’s not the same as a loyalty card, not at all. Loyalty card schemes are, by comparison, very open and honest about what they are collecting the data for. This creep in this parking lot wasn’t, and neither was the shop owner. (BTW, something about his answer makes me suspect he knows exactly what is going on.) And as you can tell from my Gmail address, I am not a fanatic about privacy.
My ex-husband once had his car towed because he had a “For Sale” sign in it whence parking to run some errands. It was assumed he’d parked the car to leave it when in fact he’d gone in to get groceries and had been gone less than 20 minutes.
This kind of thing totally smacks of a “precrime” mindset. If a car parks overnight or something, then tow it for god’s sake, don’t keep a preventive database on the off chance something illicit might occur. I don’t even get how that’s supposed to prevent anything.
Annoying costumers that way is a good way to lose them, as it should be. To tell the business owners so is probably more than that manner of nonsense rates.
Now, replace the words “Shopping Centre” with “web site” and the words “license plate” with “IP address”.
On general principle, I don’t mind the idea of somebody tracking how long my car stays in a parking space if they don’t use the information for anything else.
Still. Kinda creepy.
Molly –
Whether you feel it is an invasion of privacy, whether it is, as some put it, “uber creepy”, or whether it was ethically or legally wrong at one point, all of those issues are moot as of the passage of the Patriot Act.
From Section 4, Paragraph 6 dealing with public and/or retail institutions keeping records of patrons:
It goes on, but you get the idea. You’re just outta luck. Sorry.
Writing down plate numbers seems to me to be overkill. It’s a lot easier just to mark tires with a chalk mark. Come back 30 minutes later and count the chalk marks, and you have an instant count of how many cars have been there for 30 minutes.
I’m a bit wacky, but I wonder if this is a sneaky way to get an inventory of mall customers for target advertising. Most any security company has an ex-cop on staff that can get access to DMV records and thus mailing addresses from plate numbers.
I’d start shopping elsewhere, and I’d make sure mall management knew it. But that’s just my wacky opinion; I could be wrong.
Just be glad you know they are doing it. You would be surprised to find out just how much you are observed in your day to day life while being completely oblivious to it.
IANAY (I am not a yank) but it’s not paranoia to wonder what information the American government are compiling about you guys. I worry about it here in the UK, too.
By the same token, the fact that I’ve visited this page probably means on your server is recorded my IP address and where I came from, among other things. You can tell how long I’m on the site, what page I leave from, the path through the site….
I’m here using the ‘premises’ legally though.
Also, I used to work in an office involved with processing poilce clearance forms for people working in schools. There were guidelines on who should be checked etc…
It wasn’t terribly rare for someone to get annoyed at being told to fill in a form to see if they had convictions becasue they were “a respected member of the community”. And so they might have been, they may ahve been fine upstanding individuals with nothing but goodness in their hearts, but how would we know that?
In the same way, how can they possibly know that you’re are a well behaved customer? The guy doesn’t know you personally, and how does he spot who is and isn’t a well behaved customer who stays for a few minutes, uses the relevant shops, and then goes again?
If there’s an internal despute about use of the parking, they need to data to resolve it….
Sorry, but it sounds like you are overly paranoid. From what you’ve written, it actually sounds like they aren’t tracking customers, but employees. See, mall employees are suppose to park in the back 40, leaving the spots close to the mall for customers. As you said, there is “some dispute between businesses about the use of the parking spaces.” My guess is one business complained about another’s employees taking up prime parking spots. Mall employees (at least at the mall I worked in) have to provide their license plate info to the mall for just such a reason.
No, Molly. I don’t think you’re paranoid. A bit overly cautious, maybe, and this is a time for that. But not paranoid.
I have no doubt that there are Bad People out there, collecting, colating and sifting data on this or that subset of the population with an eye toward propagating Evil. But these folks are just trying to figure out who is using their parking lot, and how.
There may be dozens of “Red Ferrari’s” in town. But yours is the only one with plates reading “XHTML”. They’re not so interested in the Molly-ness of you being there as they are in the “Arizona ABC-000″ -ness of you being there–one unique car taking up one particular space. You’re translated into a tally mark on a spreadsheet somewhere, I’m sure. Nobody is keeping track of your buying two thongs and two Gramma Panties at Molly’s Secret, or anything like that. There’s probably no way, certainly no cheap and easy way, for them to even collect that kind of data and assign it to your plate number.
I wouldn’t worry about it. I would remain vigilant, but I wouldn’t worry about it.
Well, you’re probably being paranoid, but the way things are going in our society today there’s probably something wrong with you if you’re not a little paranoid.
Personally, I’m with the commentator who thinks chalk marks would be adequate. After all, that’s what meter readers do to check spaces.
Anything more makes you wonder why they would need to know who owns the car.
Keith… you nearly pulled me in a the beginning of your homeland security quote.
Molly, I’m with you. It disturbs me. Lots of things disturb me. And yes, I believe our civil liberties are being eroded in many ways. But hey, if you’re not a criminal, you shouldn’t worry about it!
Right.
observed obschmerved… let’em look, who cares, look all you want, track me trace me tap my phone bug my house… I am not that important if someone wants to waste their time have at it and good luck staying awake
– I think this is a case of the store owners duking it out rather than who you are or whatever… let’s see, car x has paked in store y’s spot 2 out of 3 times and went into store z 4 out of… no wait a minute…
wow! excellent molly!